No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Yes if they weren't regenerated they were dead to God. Besides that, Joshua was speaking to the people as a whole, the redeemed nation of israel, they were as a nation already the people of God. However if it came to a person personally, they must like any other sinner must needs to be made spiritually alive to serve the Living God, which comes through the blood of Christ Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
I thought regeneration / born again began in the New Testament at Pentecost?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Thats what you get for thinking !
Are you saying people were born again before Pentecost?

Why are you being demeaning and sarcastic?

Luke 6
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High,because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Ok so no one was saved in the Old Testament since no one was born again until Pentecost. That is what you believe ?
Plenty of folk were saved in the OT, where you get that non sense from my friend. BTW this thread is about no man can come to Christ /believe on Him by their so called own freewill Jn 6:44
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Nobody said faith is regeneration, so please dont misrepresent, its not christlike friend
I asked if people on the OT were born again and your response was of course they had faith . So that means faith is regeneration. Maybe you could communicate more clearly next time.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you saying that a mans will cannot choose God. Isn’t man responsible to choose serving God ?

Joshua 24:14-15
Now fear the Lordand serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day".
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living".

It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.


Further, you need to make a distinction between an "imperative" statement (ie. a command), and a narrative statement (indicative, something that happens). Just because someone is commanded to do something, doesn't mean that we are able to do so. The "command implies ability" controversy goes all the way back to Augustine, who wrote:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and command what thou wilt.
"

Pelagius took issue with this, and objected that God had no need to "grant" what He commanded, since if He commanded it, we must be able to do it on our own. Today, many Arminians who post here (who are really semi-Pelagians) affirm "free will", while the Calvinists believe God must grant what He commands.

Btw, the documentary, "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism", that I recommended to you yesterday covers the Augustine-Pelagius controversy in detail.

As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law, and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,



Free Will?

Are you saying that a mans will cannot choose God. Isn’t man responsible to choose serving God ?

Yes, we have a responsibility to (1) not sin, (2) to believe, and (3) to repent. But just because we have the obligation to do so, doesn't mean that we are ABLE to do so.

Many Christians believe in "free will", but in point of the fact, the Bible not only never teaches that man has "free will", but that we have wills which are "enslaved" (not free) in sin. The main "proof-texts" Arminians use to try to prove "free will" come from the Mosaic Law:

Ex. 35:29 ... that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

But this doesn't mean that man has "a free will to choose", it refers to the status of the OFFERING, that it is voluntary, that it is over and above what is required by the Law.



Man's INABILITY

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, ["set free", PASSIVE voice, done TO us] have become slaves of righteousness.

Either "slaves of sin", or "slaves of righteousness". Always a slave to something. NEVER "free".

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Can We "Freely" Believe? From Whence Comes Faith?

Is "believing", or "having faith", pleasing to God? I think most would agree that it is. Yet Rom. 8:8 says that those who are in the the flesh "cannot please God". I think it's a valid conclusion that if belief is pleasing to God, then those in the flesh cannot do it.

We are "dead in trespasses and sins", we are "slaves of sin", so that is why we must be REGENERATED, and then GIVEN faith by God. Yes, faith is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? [That includes faith] If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day".
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living".

It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.


Further, you need to make a distinction between an "imperative" statement (ie. a command), and a narrative statement (indicative, something that happens). Just because someone is commanded to do something, doesn't mean that we are able to do so. The "command implies ability" controversy goes all the way back to Augustine, who wrote:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and command what thou wilt.
"

Pelagius took issue with this, and objected that God had no need to "grant" what He commanded, since if He commanded it, we must be able to do it on our own. Today, many Arminians who post here (who are really semi-Pelagians) affirm "free will", while the Calvinists believe God must grant what He commands.

Btw, the documentary, "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism", that I recommended to you yesterday covers the Augustine-Pelagius controversy in detail.

As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law, and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,



Free Will?



Yes, we have a responsibility to (1) not sin, (2) to believe, and (3) to repent. But just because we have the obligation to do so, doesn't mean that we are ABLE to do so.

Many Christians believe in "free will", but in point of the fact, the Bible not only never teaches that man has "free will", but that we have wills which are "enslaved" (not free) in sin. The main "proof-texts" Arminians use to try to prove "free will" come from the Mosaic Law:

Ex. 35:29 ... that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

But this doesn't mean that man has "a free will to choose", it refers to the status of the OFFERING, that it is voluntary, that it is over and above what is required by the Law.



Man's INABILITY

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, ["set free", PASSIVE voice, done TO us] have become slaves of righteousness.

Either "slaves of sin", or "slaves of righteousness". Always a slave to something. NEVER "free".

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Can We "Freely" Believe? From Whence Comes Faith?

Is "believing", or "having faith", pleasing to God? I think most would agree that it is. Yet Rom. 8:8 says that those who are in the the flesh "cannot please God". I think it's a valid conclusion that if belief is pleasing to God, then those in the flesh cannot do it.

We are "dead in trespasses and sins", we are "slaves of sin", so that is why we must be REGENERATED, and then GIVEN faith by God. Yes, faith is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? [That includes faith] If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
I have not watched the video so maybe I can watch it later today. Are you a preacher by any chance ? Your post could be used as a sermon.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have not watched the video so maybe I can watch it later today. Are you a preacher by any chance ? Your post could be used as a sermon.

Thank you for the compliment, but no.

I came to Christ after graduating Teachers' College (I'm a science teacher).
That was 30 years ago.
I actually got my private pilot's license (I'm a Cessna "driver") 15 years later.

If I had to do it over again, I might have become a pastor, or a commercial pilot.
But as you may be able to tell, I'm very zealous for my faith, and I've taken it upon myself to study church history, learn Greek, and do a lot of study on all manner of Christian topics.

I believe you said you've ordered "The Forgotten Trinity". Great book, and I know the author, James White. Not only did I have the privilege to go on a cruise that he hosted, but I spent many years in his "chat channel", where it is impossible not to learn from him. He's also done a great many debates against Roman Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and one with a Jehovah's Witness, which were very beneficial to watch. Many (most?) are on YouTube, I believe.

I believe another poster here goes to his church that he co-pastors with Jeff Durbin.
 
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