No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Beloved Daughter

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Theo1689 said:
Thank you for the compliment, but no.

I came to Christ after graduating Teachers' College (I'm a science teacher).
That was 30 years ago.
I actually got my private pilot's license (I'm a Cessna "driver") 15 years later.

If I had to do it over again, I might have become a pastor, or a commercial pilot.
But as you may be able to tell, I'm very zealous for my faith, and I've taken it upon myself to study church history, learn Greek, and do a lot of study on all manner of Christian topics.

I believe you said you've ordered "The Forgotten Trinity". Great book, and I know the author, James White. Not only did I have the privilege to go on a cruise that he hosted, but I spent many years in his "chat channel", where it is impossible not to learn from him. He's also done a great many debates against Roman Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and one with a Jehovah's Witness, which were very beneficial to watch. Many (most?) are on YouTube, I believe.

I believe another poster here goes to his church that he co-pastors with Jeff Durbin.
Click to expand...

Yep, that would be me. I've followed White's teaching for years and he was the first person to make an argument for reformed theology. That changed everything. Scripture became the true 'Living Water'. I had to challenge many years of lazy thinking, but the journey was worth it. Praise be to God for His work in this. I didn't attend his church at the time PRBC. My husband and I had an opportunity to work with Apologia church. I'm dedicated to stopping abortion, so I was quite happy there. Summer White (James' daughter) attended there at the time. Over time James became more and more involved and finally, he made the move. I couldn't be any happier with the teaching, and of course END ABORTION NOW. Match made in heaven.
 
Last edited:
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Beloved Daughter said:
Yep, that would be me. I've following White's teaching for years and he was the first person to make an argument for reformed theology.
Click to expand...

Same here. I was saved in an Arminian church 30 years ago, and shortly after was befriended by a Mormon who saw a Bible quote the signature of my email. That gave me a love for the Mormon people, and I started evangelizing on Mormon discussion forums (they were mostly "BBS's" at the time, the early '90's, "Bulletin Board Systems", which were based on PC's connected together by modems stretching all over North America).

I was in this Mormon discussion group, and apparently James White was doing the same thing. But he came into discussion with "election", and "predestination", and so he and I started going back and forth. I had no clue who he was at the time, but I'm glad he planted the seeds.

Beloved Daughter said:
That changed everything. Scripture became the true 'Living Water'. I had to challenge many years of lazy thinking, but the journey was worth it.
Click to expand...

Amen! My description is that theology was like a jigsaw puzzle I was putting together, but there wasn't really any pictures on the pieces, and some of the pieces just didn't fit no matter what. Then all of a sudden (during my Reformed awakening), I suddenly realized that I was trying to put the puzzle together upside down, and I finally found the pictures on the pieces, and they suddenly fit together perfectly.

Beloved Daughter said:
Praise be to God for His work in this. I didn't attend his church at the time PRBC. My husband and I had an opportunity to work with Apologia church. I'm dedicated to stopping abortion, so I was quite happy there. Summer White (James' daughter) attended there at the time. Over time James became more and more involved and finally, he made the move. I couldn't be any happier with the teaching, and of course END ABORTION NOW. Match made in heaven.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Jeff has done a great job on the abortion front, just like he does in his encounters with Mormons.
And I follow Summer on FB. She has an amazing family. She is certainly her father's daughter! :)
 
C

cadwell

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
Click to expand...
The bible says that Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and for years after he died.

Joshua 24
31 And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.

"All the days of (fill in the blank)" is a Hebrew idiom for the time a ruler was over the nation. Not to be confused with "all the days of his/her/their/etc life", which is an idiom for a persons life from birth to death. In Joshua's case, his "days" began when he took over command from Moses (Joshua 1:1-10). You will not find a SINGLE example of ANYONE serving other gods under Joshuas command. What you will find is the people accepting Joshua as their leader (Josh 1:16-18), and the bible REPEATING the truth concerning their fidelity to God:

Judges 2
7 And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

No one who served other Gods made it to the promised land.

Joshua 5
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Numbers14
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

Numbers 32
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

It is worth noting in numbers 32 what God said concerning what would happen if those 19 and under made the same mistake as their fathers:

Numbers 32
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the Lord toward Israel.
15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people

Did that happen? Did Israel wander for another 40 years because they turned away from the Lord? No, the bible says they took possession of the land because during the days of Joshua, the people served the Lord.
Theo1689 said:
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day"
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living"."
Click to expand...
He didnt make the statement "if it seems evil to serve the Lord" for nothing, out of thin air. A verse earlier, he told them this:

Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

Their first choice was to serve the Lord. It doesnt matter that "serve the Lord" came before the word "choose", it is still an option. Serving the Lord is the FIRST option, and if they thats evil in their sight (and he's not saying it is) then they have the option of either the gods their father served on the other side of the river, or one of the gods from the land they now inhabited.
Theo1689 said:
It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.
Click to expand...
Thats precisely what it is.

Deut 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God always lays out BOTH life and death. Your morbid rendering suggests He only offered death. That sentiment is rebuked twice already in Joshua 24:31 and Judges 2:7, and verse 15 shows that Joshua did exactly what he knew to do, he chose life:

"as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"

Theo1689 said:
As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law,
Click to expand...
This is your theology again doing a complete "180" to scripture. The bible does not say that man "cannot" obey the law, it says the polar opposite.
Deut 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Not only does the bible say that the law isnt too hard for man to keep, or out of our reach, but it is close enough (in our hearts) that we can do/obey it. Beyond that, the bible testifies AGAIN about how the law was able to be kept and obeyed:

Luke 1
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So how was Zacharias and Elisabeth able to do something you claim man "cannot" do? And why are you dragging Paul into this? He NEVER said we "cannot" obey the law. What he said in Romans 3:20 is no different than what he said several times throughout his epistles: works dont save.
Theo1689 said:
and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:
Click to expand...
The non biblical portion of your statement has been underlined for your convenience.
 
J

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
cadwell said:
The bible says that Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and for years after he died.

Joshua 24
31 And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.

"All the days of (fill in the blank)" is a Hebrew idiom for the time a ruler was over the nation. Not to be confused with "all the days of his/her/their/etc life", which is an idiom for a persons life from birth to death. In Joshua's case, his "days" began when he took over command from Moses (Joshua 1:1-10). You will not find a SINGLE example of ANYONE serving other gods under Joshuas command. What you will find is the people accepting Joshua as their leader (Josh 1:16-18), and the bible REPEATING the truth concerning their fidelity to God:

Judges 2
7 And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

No one who served other Gods made it to the promised land.

Joshua 5
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Numbers14
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

Numbers 32
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

It is worth noting in numbers 32 what God said concerning what would happen if those 19 and under made the same mistake as their fathers:

Numbers 32
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the Lord toward Israel.
15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people

Did that happen? Did Israel wander for another 40 years because they turned away from the Lord? No, the bible says they took possession of the land because during the days of Joshua, the people served the Lord.

He didnt make the statement "if it seems evil to serve the Lord" for nothing, out of thin air. A verse earlier, he told them this:

Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

Their first choice was to serve the Lord. It doesnt matter that "serve the Lord" came before the word "choose", it is still an option. Serving the Lord is the FIRST option, and if they thats evil in their sight (and he's not saying it is) then they have the option of either the gods their father served on the other side of the river, or one of the gods from the land they now inhabited.

Thats precisely what it is.

Deut 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God always lays out BOTH life and death. Your morbid rendering suggests He only offered death. That sentiment is rebuked twice already in Joshua 24:31 and Judges 2:7, and verse 15 shows that Joshua did exactly what he knew to do, he chose life:

"as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"


This is your theology again doing a complete "180" to scripture. The bible does not say that man "cannot" obey the law, it says the polar opposite.
Deut 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Not only does the bible say that the law isnt too hard for man to keep, or out of our reach, but it is close enough (in our hearts) that we can do/obey it. Beyond that, the bible testifies AGAIN about how the law was able to be kept and obeyed:

Luke 1
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So how was Zacharias and Elisabeth able to do something you claim man "cannot" do? And why are you dragging Paul into this? He NEVER said we "cannot" obey the law. What he said in Romans 3:20 is no different than what he said several times throughout his epistles: works dont save.

The non biblical portion of your statement has been underlined for your convenience.
Click to expand...
So you don’t sin and you obey the law perfectly right ?

You have a big advantage over those Jews since they were not born again and filled with the spirit .
 
C

cadwell

Well-known member
civic said:
Your human pelagian reasoning is highly offense. All Pelagians like you which are considered heretics and heterodox by Historic Christendom deny original sin. You are outside of Christianity whether or not you are willing to admit that cad.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
The bible denies "original sin". Affirmation of "original sin" is denial of the bible. Instead of hurling your preferred slur for someone who denies the false "original sin" doctrine, you could have simply provided me with a biblical explanation of why you think Adams sin altered the physical makeup of all humanity. I agree that his sin brought death upon the world, but my belief on the means of how that happens is Gen 3:22-24, which explicitly demonstrates that Adam (and all mankind) lost access to eat of the tree of life and live forever. You take some verses from Romans use them to explain some genetic mutation the bible fails to ever explicitly mention.
 
C

cadwell

Well-known member
Johnnybgood said:
So you don’t sin and you obey the law perfectly right ?

You have a big advantage over those Jews since they were not born again and filled with the spirit .
Click to expand...
The idea that man CANNOT keep the law is unscriptural (deut 30:11,14). Luke 1:6 does not mean Zecharias and Elisabeth did not sin. What it means is that when they did, they performed those duties as required by the law to atone for their sin, and thus kept good standing before God. So it was indeed possible to sin, and at the same time perfectly keep the law.

I dont know what your second statement means.
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
God never said you can believe without life, you made that statement up. Without life man is dead !
Click to expand...

You calling God a liar? Here are his words:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
J

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
No Im not. Are you calling God a liar by saying man isnt dead to God ?
Click to expand...
Was Zaccheus regenerated ? Yes or no

Where does it say he was below ?

Luke 19
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord,“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
Johnnybgood said:
Was Zaccheus regenerated ? Yes or no

Where does it say he was below ?

Luke 19
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord,“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Click to expand...
No man naturally can come to Christ by their own freewill. When I say no man, there are no exceptions, do you understand ?
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
Man by nature is totally dead to God, the True God, this means his will, desire is dead to the True God. If the man is dead to God, his will, affections, and mind is dead to God. The God man wants by nature is an idol, a false god, his will doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11 because he is dead to Him !
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
Even while man is dead to God, he conversely is a servant of sin, his so called freewill is nothing more than a slave to sin Jn 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:20

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

One writer writes:

All men by nature are under the curse of the law, because all are naturally under the dominion of sin. Sin has possession of every man's soul by nature. Sin is the governing principle and motivating force of all that fallen men think, desire and do (Matt. 15:18-20). The reign of sin over man is so thorough and complete that he cannot even will that which is righteous and good, much less do it. Sin holds even his will in bondage, so that all the fallen sons of Adam love to do is evil. DFortner
Click to expand...

I might differ with Fortner in one point, the Elect of God by nature are not under the curse of the law, not in the legal judicial sense, for Christ took care of that for them, He himself having been made a curse for them and redeemed them from it Gal 3:13, but from a by nature sense, the Elect of God are just as imprisoned by sin as the non elect.
 
C

cadwell

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
This I would agree. I would just add that man because of this participation with Adam the consequences is man is born spiritually dead to God, just as much as God told Adam[man] that in the day he eats, he should surely die ! Gen 2:17
Click to expand...
Do you know what "regenerated" means? Where does the bible say man is born with a dead spirit?
brightfame52 said:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The word die mut means

  1. to die, kill, have one executed
    1. (Qal)
      1. to die
      2. to die (as penalty), be put to death
      3. to die, perish (of a nation)
      4. to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
    2. (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
    3. (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
    4. (Hophal)
      1. to be killed, be put to death
        1. to die prematurely

So from that time forward, for any man or person to have any meaningful spiritual relationship with God, they must be born again, or made alive ! And thats totally out of mans ability to do, so much so as it was out of Lazarus control to make himself alive as he lay in his physical death and stinketh !
Click to expand...
Wasnt Lazarus alive first, then he died, and was revived? I agree that he had no control to make himself alive and Jesus had to do it, but wasnt he alive first? That example doesnt help you. Do you know what it means to "revive" something?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top