No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you saying that a mans will cannot choose God. Isn’t man responsible to choose serving God ?

Joshua 24:14-15
Now fear the Lordand serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day".
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living".

It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.


Further, you need to make a distinction between an "imperative" statement (ie. a command), and a narrative statement (indicative, something that happens). Just because someone is commanded to do something, doesn't mean that we are able to do so. The "command implies ability" controversy goes all the way back to Augustine, who wrote:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and command what thou wilt.
"

Pelagius took issue with this, and objected that God had no need to "grant" what He commanded, since if He commanded it, we must be able to do it on our own. Today, many Arminians who post here (who are really semi-Pelagians) affirm "free will", while the Calvinists believe God must grant what He commands.

Btw, the documentary, "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism", that I recommended to you yesterday covers the Augustine-Pelagius controversy in detail.

As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law, and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,



Free Will?

Are you saying that a mans will cannot choose God. Isn’t man responsible to choose serving God ?

Yes, we have a responsibility to (1) not sin, (2) to believe, and (3) to repent. But just because we have the obligation to do so, doesn't mean that we are ABLE to do so.

Many Christians believe in "free will", but in point of the fact, the Bible not only never teaches that man has "free will", but that we have wills which are "enslaved" (not free) in sin. The main "proof-texts" Arminians use to try to prove "free will" come from the Mosaic Law:

Ex. 35:29 ... that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

But this doesn't mean that man has "a free will to choose", it refers to the status of the OFFERING, that it is voluntary, that it is over and above what is required by the Law.



Man's INABILITY

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, ["set free", PASSIVE voice, done TO us] have become slaves of righteousness.

Either "slaves of sin", or "slaves of righteousness". Always a slave to something. NEVER "free".

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Can We "Freely" Believe? From Whence Comes Faith?

Is "believing", or "having faith", pleasing to God? I think most would agree that it is. Yet Rom. 8:8 says that those who are in the the flesh "cannot please God". I think it's a valid conclusion that if belief is pleasing to God, then those in the flesh cannot do it.

We are "dead in trespasses and sins", we are "slaves of sin", so that is why we must be REGENERATED, and then GIVEN faith by God. Yes, faith is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? [That includes faith] If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day".
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living".

It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.


Further, you need to make a distinction between an "imperative" statement (ie. a command), and a narrative statement (indicative, something that happens). Just because someone is commanded to do something, doesn't mean that we are able to do so. The "command implies ability" controversy goes all the way back to Augustine, who wrote:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and command what thou wilt.
"

Pelagius took issue with this, and objected that God had no need to "grant" what He commanded, since if He commanded it, we must be able to do it on our own. Today, many Arminians who post here (who are really semi-Pelagians) affirm "free will", while the Calvinists believe God must grant what He commands.

Btw, the documentary, "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism", that I recommended to you yesterday covers the Augustine-Pelagius controversy in detail.

As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law, and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,



Free Will?



Yes, we have a responsibility to (1) not sin, (2) to believe, and (3) to repent. But just because we have the obligation to do so, doesn't mean that we are ABLE to do so.

Many Christians believe in "free will", but in point of the fact, the Bible not only never teaches that man has "free will", but that we have wills which are "enslaved" (not free) in sin. The main "proof-texts" Arminians use to try to prove "free will" come from the Mosaic Law:

Ex. 35:29 ... that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

But this doesn't mean that man has "a free will to choose", it refers to the status of the OFFERING, that it is voluntary, that it is over and above what is required by the Law.



Man's INABILITY

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, ["set free", PASSIVE voice, done TO us] have become slaves of righteousness.

Either "slaves of sin", or "slaves of righteousness". Always a slave to something. NEVER "free".

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Can We "Freely" Believe? From Whence Comes Faith?

Is "believing", or "having faith", pleasing to God? I think most would agree that it is. Yet Rom. 8:8 says that those who are in the the flesh "cannot please God". I think it's a valid conclusion that if belief is pleasing to God, then those in the flesh cannot do it.

We are "dead in trespasses and sins", we are "slaves of sin", so that is why we must be REGENERATED, and then GIVEN faith by God. Yes, faith is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? [That includes faith] If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
I have not watched the video so maybe I can watch it later today. Are you a preacher by any chance ? Your post could be used as a sermon.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have not watched the video so maybe I can watch it later today. Are you a preacher by any chance ? Your post could be used as a sermon.

Thank you for the compliment, but no.

I came to Christ after graduating Teachers' College (I'm a science teacher).
That was 30 years ago.
I actually got my private pilot's license (I'm a Cessna "driver") 15 years later.

If I had to do it over again, I might have become a pastor, or a commercial pilot.
But as you may be able to tell, I'm very zealous for my faith, and I've taken it upon myself to study church history, learn Greek, and do a lot of study on all manner of Christian topics.

I believe you said you've ordered "The Forgotten Trinity". Great book, and I know the author, James White. Not only did I have the privilege to go on a cruise that he hosted, but I spent many years in his "chat channel", where it is impossible not to learn from him. He's also done a great many debates against Roman Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and one with a Jehovah's Witness, which were very beneficial to watch. Many (most?) are on YouTube, I believe.

I believe another poster here goes to his church that he co-pastors with Jeff Durbin.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Thank you for the compliment, but no.

I came to Christ after graduating Teachers' College (I'm a science teacher).
That was 30 years ago.
I actually got my private pilot's license (I'm a Cessna "driver") 15 years later.

If I had to do it over again, I might have become a pastor, or a commercial pilot.
But as you may be able to tell, I'm very zealous for my faith, and I've taken it upon myself to study church history, learn Greek, and do a lot of study on all manner of Christian topics.

I believe you said you've ordered "The Forgotten Trinity". Great book, and I know the author, James White. Not only did I have the privilege to go on a cruise that he hosted, but I spent many years in his "chat channel", where it is impossible not to learn from him. He's also done a great many debates against Roman Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and one with a Jehovah's Witness, which were very beneficial to watch. Many (most?) are on YouTube, I believe.

I believe another poster here goes to his church that he co-pastors with Jeff Durbin.

Yep, that would be me. I've followed White's teaching for years and he was the first person to make an argument for reformed theology. That changed everything. Scripture became the true 'Living Water'. I had to challenge many years of lazy thinking, but the journey was worth it. Praise be to God for His work in this. I didn't attend his church at the time PRBC. My husband and I had an opportunity to work with Apologia church. I'm dedicated to stopping abortion, so I was quite happy there. Summer White (James' daughter) attended there at the time. Over time James became more and more involved and finally, he made the move. I couldn't be any happier with the teaching, and of course END ABORTION NOW. Match made in heaven.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Yep, that would be me. I've following White's teaching for years and he was the first person to make an argument for reformed theology.

Same here. I was saved in an Arminian church 30 years ago, and shortly after was befriended by a Mormon who saw a Bible quote the signature of my email. That gave me a love for the Mormon people, and I started evangelizing on Mormon discussion forums (they were mostly "BBS's" at the time, the early '90's, "Bulletin Board Systems", which were based on PC's connected together by modems stretching all over North America).

I was in this Mormon discussion group, and apparently James White was doing the same thing. But he came into discussion with "election", and "predestination", and so he and I started going back and forth. I had no clue who he was at the time, but I'm glad he planted the seeds.

That changed everything. Scripture became the true 'Living Water'. I had to challenge many years of lazy thinking, but the journey was worth it.

Amen! My description is that theology was like a jigsaw puzzle I was putting together, but there wasn't really any pictures on the pieces, and some of the pieces just didn't fit no matter what. Then all of a sudden (during my Reformed awakening), I suddenly realized that I was trying to put the puzzle together upside down, and I finally found the pictures on the pieces, and they suddenly fit together perfectly.

Praise be to God for His work in this. I didn't attend his church at the time PRBC. My husband and I had an opportunity to work with Apologia church. I'm dedicated to stopping abortion, so I was quite happy there. Summer White (James' daughter) attended there at the time. Over time James became more and more involved and finally, he made the move. I couldn't be any happier with the teaching, and of course END ABORTION NOW. Match made in heaven.

Yeah, Jeff has done a great job on the abortion front, just like he does in his encounters with Mormons.
And I follow Summer on FB. She has an amazing family. She is certainly her father's daughter! :)
 

cadwell

Member
Johnny, please read the above carefully. You will find the following:
1) FIRST, they decided that "serving the Lord seems undesirable" (v.15a)
The bible says that Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and for years after he died.

Joshua 24
31 And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.

"All the days of (fill in the blank)" is a Hebrew idiom for the time a ruler was over the nation. Not to be confused with "all the days of his/her/their/etc life", which is an idiom for a persons life from birth to death. In Joshua's case, his "days" began when he took over command from Moses (Joshua 1:1-10). You will not find a SINGLE example of ANYONE serving other gods under Joshuas command. What you will find is the people accepting Joshua as their leader (Josh 1:16-18), and the bible REPEATING the truth concerning their fidelity to God:

Judges 2
7 And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

No one who served other Gods made it to the promised land.

Joshua 5
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Numbers14
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.


Numbers 32
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

It is worth noting in numbers 32 what God said concerning what would happen if those 19 and under made the same mistake as their fathers:

Numbers 32
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the Lord toward Israel.
15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people


Did that happen? Did Israel wander for another 40 years because they turned away from the Lord? No, the bible says they took possession of the land because during the days of Joshua, the people served the Lord.
2) THEN they were told to "choose for yourselves this day"
3) Their choices were between two sets of false gods, namely "the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates", or "the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living"."
He didnt make the statement "if it seems evil to serve the Lord" for nothing, out of thin air. A verse earlier, he told them this:

Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

Their first choice was to serve the Lord. It doesnt matter that "serve the Lord" came before the word "choose", it is still an option. Serving the Lord is the FIRST option, and if they thats evil in their sight (and he's not saying it is) then they have the option of either the gods their father served on the other side of the river, or one of the gods from the land they now inhabited.
It is NOT a command to "choose" the God of the Bible or not.
Thats precisely what it is.

Deut 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


God always lays out BOTH life and death. Your morbid rendering suggests He only offered death. That sentiment is rebuked twice already in Joshua 24:31 and Judges 2:7, and verse 15 shows that Joshua did exactly what he knew to do, he chose life:

"as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"

As an example of command not implying ability, God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law. And there were Pharisees in Jesus day who claim, "Yes, we have obeyed the Law". But Rom. 3:19-20 tells us that we CANNOT obey the Law,
This is your theology again doing a complete "180" to scripture. The bible does not say that man "cannot" obey the law, it says the polar opposite.
Deut 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Not only does the bible say that the law isnt too hard for man to keep, or out of our reach, but it is close enough (in our hearts) that we can do/obey it. Beyond that, the bible testifies AGAIN about how the law was able to be kept and obeyed:

Luke 1
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So how was Zacharias and Elisabeth able to do something you claim man "cannot" do? And why are you dragging Paul into this? He NEVER said we "cannot" obey the law. What he said in Romans 3:20 is no different than what he said several times throughout his epistles: works dont save.
and in fact the purpose of the Law was NOT to be "[successfully] obeyed", but to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:
The non biblical portion of your statement has been underlined for your convenience.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
The bible says that Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and for years after he died.

Joshua 24
31 And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.

"All the days of (fill in the blank)" is a Hebrew idiom for the time a ruler was over the nation. Not to be confused with "all the days of his/her/their/etc life", which is an idiom for a persons life from birth to death. In Joshua's case, his "days" began when he took over command from Moses (Joshua 1:1-10). You will not find a SINGLE example of ANYONE serving other gods under Joshuas command. What you will find is the people accepting Joshua as their leader (Josh 1:16-18), and the bible REPEATING the truth concerning their fidelity to God:

Judges 2
7 And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

No one who served other Gods made it to the promised land.

Joshua 5
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Numbers14
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.


Numbers 32
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

It is worth noting in numbers 32 what God said concerning what would happen if those 19 and under made the same mistake as their fathers:

Numbers 32
14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the Lord toward Israel.
15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people


Did that happen? Did Israel wander for another 40 years because they turned away from the Lord? No, the bible says they took possession of the land because during the days of Joshua, the people served the Lord.

He didnt make the statement "if it seems evil to serve the Lord" for nothing, out of thin air. A verse earlier, he told them this:

Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

Their first choice was to serve the Lord. It doesnt matter that "serve the Lord" came before the word "choose", it is still an option. Serving the Lord is the FIRST option, and if they thats evil in their sight (and he's not saying it is) then they have the option of either the gods their father served on the other side of the river, or one of the gods from the land they now inhabited.

Thats precisely what it is.

Deut 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


God always lays out BOTH life and death. Your morbid rendering suggests He only offered death. That sentiment is rebuked twice already in Joshua 24:31 and Judges 2:7, and verse 15 shows that Joshua did exactly what he knew to do, he chose life:

"as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"


This is your theology again doing a complete "180" to scripture. The bible does not say that man "cannot" obey the law, it says the polar opposite.
Deut 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Not only does the bible say that the law isnt too hard for man to keep, or out of our reach, but it is close enough (in our hearts) that we can do/obey it. Beyond that, the bible testifies AGAIN about how the law was able to be kept and obeyed:

Luke 1
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So how was Zacharias and Elisabeth able to do something you claim man "cannot" do? And why are you dragging Paul into this? He NEVER said we "cannot" obey the law. What he said in Romans 3:20 is no different than what he said several times throughout his epistles: works dont save.

The non biblical portion of your statement has been underlined for your convenience.
So you don’t sin and you obey the law perfectly right ?

You have a big advantage over those Jews since they were not born again and filled with the spirit .
 

cadwell

Member
Your human pelagian reasoning is highly offense. All Pelagians like you which are considered heretics and heterodox by Historic Christendom deny original sin. You are outside of Christianity whether or not you are willing to admit that cad.

hope this helps !!!
The bible denies "original sin". Affirmation of "original sin" is denial of the bible. Instead of hurling your preferred slur for someone who denies the false "original sin" doctrine, you could have simply provided me with a biblical explanation of why you think Adams sin altered the physical makeup of all humanity. I agree that his sin brought death upon the world, but my belief on the means of how that happens is Gen 3:22-24, which explicitly demonstrates that Adam (and all mankind) lost access to eat of the tree of life and live forever. You take some verses from Romans use them to explain some genetic mutation the bible fails to ever explicitly mention.
 

cadwell

Member
So you don’t sin and you obey the law perfectly right ?

You have a big advantage over those Jews since they were not born again and filled with the spirit .
The idea that man CANNOT keep the law is unscriptural (deut 30:11,14). Luke 1:6 does not mean Zecharias and Elisabeth did not sin. What it means is that when they did, they performed those duties as required by the law to atone for their sin, and thus kept good standing before God. So it was indeed possible to sin, and at the same time perfectly keep the law.

I dont know what your second statement means.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
God never said you can believe without life, you made that statement up. Without life man is dead !

You calling God a liar? Here are his words:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
No Im not. Are you calling God a liar by saying man isnt dead to God ?
Was Zaccheus regenerated ? Yes or no

Where does it say he was below ?

Luke 19
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord,“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
 
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