No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo often presents 'sermons' so to speak, here in this forum. I've enjoyed every single one of them. He has the gift of clarity that is sorely needed.

Thank you for the kind words.

For any who are interested, I wrote a couple today which are more relevant to witnessing to Mormons.

The first one is the relationship between "Elohim" ("god") and "Jehovah" ("Lord"):

The second one is an exegesis of 1 Cor. 15:40-52 or so, to counteract the eccentric LDS interpretation:
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Thank you for the kind words.

For any who are interested, I wrote a couple today which are more relevant to witnessing to Mormons.

The first one is the relationship between "Elohim" ("god") and "Jehovah" ("Lord"):

The second one is an exegesis of 1 Cor. 15:40-52 or so, to counteract the eccentric LDS interpretation:

I'll look at them. I'm surrounded by Mormons. One of their newest Temples (Gilbert, AZ) is only about 6-10 miles from my home. Two Wards and an 'Institute of Religion surround my sub-division. Most of my elementary school students were Mormons. It can be a good thing. They are very concerned about the education of their children and supported me whenever they could. Of course, the are politically Conservative which makes AZ far less tyrannical than so many other states.

Pastors White and Durbin have a real heart for Mormons and I know you do as well.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Where did Jesus say that in Luke 19 to zaccheus ?

Jesus didn't say that at all. Sometimes the over-zealous make it up as they go along. Zaccheus came to Jesus willingly. He knew he was a sinner and offered to repay everything that he owed 4 X over.

It is true that those who come to Christ, do so because the Father draws them. Something drove Zaccheus to look for Jesus. That 'something' was the call of God the Father. We say it's irresistible grace.


John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Bottom line:

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


You are right to ask people to prove the Bible says x, y, and z when it clearly doesn't say that all. :)

God Speed.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Jesus didn't say that at all. Sometimes the over-zealous make it up as they go along. Zaccheus came to Jesus willingly. He knew he was a sinner and offered to repay everything that he owed 4 X over.

It is true that those who come to Christ, do so because the Father draws them. Something drove Zaccheus to look for Jesus. That 'something' was the call of God the Father. We say it's irresistible grace.


John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Bottom line:

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


You are right to ask people to prove the Bible says x, y, and z when it clearly doesn't say that all. :)

God Speed.
Thank you and even though we might not agree you gave an honest response and answered my question which I respect .
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I'll look at them. I'm surrounded by Mormons. One of their newest Temples (Gilbert, AZ) is only about 6-10 miles from my home. Two Wards and an 'Institute of Religion surround my sub-division. Most of my elementary school students were Mormons. It can be a good thing. They are very concerned about the education of their children and supported me whenever they could. Of course, the are politically Conservative which makes AZ far less tyrannical than so many other states.

Pastors White and Durbin have a real heart for Mormons and I know you do as well.
Yep! I am on Higley and Pecos. I have friends at Apologia.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.88

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32167

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32167

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man.
Show me where eternal life precedes faith in the Bible ? Thank you.

Every time I read that eternal life is a result of faith it does not precede faith .

Please convince me with scriptures.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Show me where eternal life precedes faith in the Bible ? Thank you.

Every time I read that eternal life is a result of faith it does not precede faith .

Please convince me with scriptures.
I have a thread on it ! I give my explanations, in fact, I just gave an explanation which you promptly ignored !
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
I have a thread on it ! I give my explanations, in fact, I just gave an explanation which you promptly ignored !
No thank you I will take your answer as another excuse since you cannot find any scriptures that refute my question on faith preceding eternal life . There are many passages about eternal life and faith and not once does faith come before eternal life is given .

Please do me a favor and do not respond to my posts if you cannot answer my questions. Thank you .
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, he's in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:171

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
 

newheart78

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, he's in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:171

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Amen Brother, excellent !
 
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