No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

brightfame52

Well-known member
Was Zaccheus regenerated ? Yes or no

Where does it say he was below ?

Luke 19
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord,“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
No man naturally can come to Christ by their own freewill. When I say no man, there are no exceptions, do you understand ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Man by nature is totally dead to God, the True God, this means his will, desire is dead to the True God. If the man is dead to God, his will, affections, and mind is dead to God. The God man wants by nature is an idol, a false god, his will doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11 because he is dead to Him !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Even while man is dead to God, he conversely is a servant of sin, his so called freewill is nothing more than a slave to sin Jn 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:20

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

One writer writes:

All men by nature are under the curse of the law, because all are naturally under the dominion of sin. Sin has possession of every man's soul by nature. Sin is the governing principle and motivating force of all that fallen men think, desire and do (Matt. 15:18-20). The reign of sin over man is so thorough and complete that he cannot even will that which is righteous and good, much less do it. Sin holds even his will in bondage, so that all the fallen sons of Adam love to do is evil. DFortner

I might differ with Fortner in one point, the Elect of God by nature are not under the curse of the law, not in the legal judicial sense, for Christ took care of that for them, He himself having been made a curse for them and redeemed them from it Gal 3:13, but from a by nature sense, the Elect of God are just as imprisoned by sin as the non elect.
 

cadwell

Member
This I would agree. I would just add that man because of this participation with Adam the consequences is man is born spiritually dead to God, just as much as God told Adam[man] that in the day he eats, he should surely die ! Gen 2:17
Do you know what "regenerated" means? Where does the bible say man is born with a dead spirit?
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The word die mut means

  1. to die, kill, have one executed
    1. (Qal)
      1. to die
      2. to die (as penalty), be put to death
      3. to die, perish (of a nation)
      4. to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
    2. (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
    3. (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
    4. (Hophal)
      1. to be killed, be put to death
        1. to die prematurely

So from that time forward, for any man or person to have any meaningful spiritual relationship with God, they must be born again, or made alive ! And thats totally out of mans ability to do, so much so as it was out of Lazarus control to make himself alive as he lay in his physical death and stinketh !
Wasnt Lazarus alive first, then he died, and was revived? I agree that he had no control to make himself alive and Jesus had to do it, but wasnt he alive first? That example doesnt help you. Do you know what it means to "revive" something?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo often presents 'sermons' so to speak, here in this forum. I've enjoyed every single one of them. He has the gift of clarity that is sorely needed.

Thank you for the kind words.

For any who are interested, I wrote a couple today which are more relevant to witnessing to Mormons.

The first one is the relationship between "Elohim" ("god") and "Jehovah" ("Lord"):

The second one is an exegesis of 1 Cor. 15:40-52 or so, to counteract the eccentric LDS interpretation:
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Thank you for the kind words.

For any who are interested, I wrote a couple today which are more relevant to witnessing to Mormons.

The first one is the relationship between "Elohim" ("god") and "Jehovah" ("Lord"):

The second one is an exegesis of 1 Cor. 15:40-52 or so, to counteract the eccentric LDS interpretation:

I'll look at them. I'm surrounded by Mormons. One of their newest Temples (Gilbert, AZ) is only about 6-10 miles from my home. Two Wards and an 'Institute of Religion surround my sub-division. Most of my elementary school students were Mormons. It can be a good thing. They are very concerned about the education of their children and supported me whenever they could. Of course, the are politically Conservative which makes AZ far less tyrannical than so many other states.

Pastors White and Durbin have a real heart for Mormons and I know you do as well.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Where did Jesus say that in Luke 19 to zaccheus ?

Jesus didn't say that at all. Sometimes the over-zealous make it up as they go along. Zaccheus came to Jesus willingly. He knew he was a sinner and offered to repay everything that he owed 4 X over.

It is true that those who come to Christ, do so because the Father draws them. Something drove Zaccheus to look for Jesus. That 'something' was the call of God the Father. We say it's irresistible grace.


John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Bottom line:

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


You are right to ask people to prove the Bible says x, y, and z when it clearly doesn't say that all. :)

God Speed.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Jesus didn't say that at all. Sometimes the over-zealous make it up as they go along. Zaccheus came to Jesus willingly. He knew he was a sinner and offered to repay everything that he owed 4 X over.

It is true that those who come to Christ, do so because the Father draws them. Something drove Zaccheus to look for Jesus. That 'something' was the call of God the Father. We say it's irresistible grace.


John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Bottom line:

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


You are right to ask people to prove the Bible says x, y, and z when it clearly doesn't say that all. :)

God Speed.
Thank you and even though we might not agree you gave an honest response and answered my question which I respect .
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I'll look at them. I'm surrounded by Mormons. One of their newest Temples (Gilbert, AZ) is only about 6-10 miles from my home. Two Wards and an 'Institute of Religion surround my sub-division. Most of my elementary school students were Mormons. It can be a good thing. They are very concerned about the education of their children and supported me whenever they could. Of course, the are politically Conservative which makes AZ far less tyrannical than so many other states.

Pastors White and Durbin have a real heart for Mormons and I know you do as well.
Yep! I am on Higley and Pecos. I have friends at Apologia.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.88

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32167

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32167

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man.
Show me where eternal life precedes faith in the Bible ? Thank you.

Every time I read that eternal life is a result of faith it does not precede faith .

Please convince me with scriptures.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Show me where eternal life precedes faith in the Bible ? Thank you.

Every time I read that eternal life is a result of faith it does not precede faith .

Please convince me with scriptures.
I have a thread on it ! I give my explanations, in fact, I just gave an explanation which you promptly ignored !
 
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