No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
<Chuckle>

Thank you for demonstrating a logical fallacy.

You simply ASSUME that "irresistible" means "forceful".
You don't PROVE it.

But you seem to think I have some insane obligation to "disprove" your ASSUMPTION?
Sorry, that's not how it works.

None of the elect resist, because none of the elect CHOOSE to resist.
So there you go, no "force" needed.
What about the carnal christian idea ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What about the carnal christian idea ?

I don't know what you're asking.
I believe a "carnal Christian" is a false convert to Christianity who has never been regenerated. On the forums, they tend to be "bullies" who continue to argue their previous worldview from within a "Christian" paradigm.

I'm not sure what they have to do with "irresistible grace", since they were never drawn in the first place (or at least they haven't been drawn yet).
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
<Chuckle>

Thank you for demonstrating a logical fallacy.

You simply ASSUME that "irresistible" means "forceful".
You don't PROVE it.

But you seem to think I have some insane obligation to "disprove" your ASSUMPTION?
Sorry, that's not how it works.

None of the elect resist, because none of the elect CHOOSE to resist.
So there you go, no "force" needed.
I didn't think your could (or would) answer substantively.

I chose to resist several times until the last time (I might well have done it then too, except that I was afraid there might not be a "NEXT TIME").

Since I was Born again eventually, then I'm by definition "Elect". I could have saved myself a great amount of personal PAIN, by surrendering earlier.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I chose to resist several times until the last time (I might well have done it then too, except that I was afraid there might not be a "NEXT TIME").

When God tells me that He drew you, but you resisted, only then will I accept your perception.

Since I was Born again eventually, then I'm by definition "Elect". I could have saved myself a great amount of personal PAIN, by surrendering earlier.

Not my problem.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
I don't know what you're asking.
I believe a "carnal Christian" is a false convert to Christianity who has never been regenerated. On the forums, they tend to be "bullies" who continue to argue their previous worldview from within a "Christian" paradigm.

I'm not sure what they have to do with "irresistible grace", since they were never drawn in the first place (or at least they haven't been drawn yet).
Ok thank you . I wanted to know your idea on the topic because I hear it tossed around and there are tracts written about the carnal christian. I believe real Christians want to be pleasing to God and not themselves and that the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sins and cause them to repent .
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
@ReverendRV do you have one of your tracts on the carnal Christian I can read ?
VIP’s ~ by ReverendRV

Hebrews 10:25 NIV; not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

This Gospel Tract is for the ‘Unchurched Church’. When we read a verse like the one above, you should expect a Christian to invite you back to Church; even expect them to compel you. The Day being spoken of is the Last Day; and it is approaching! There’s a group of unreached people and it may shock the Christian to realize this, but they're people who were raised in Church but got old enough to choose to stop attending. ~ One prominent thing we used to hear from people was "do not Judge lest you be judged"; now what we hear most is that "You don’t have to go to Church to be a Christian". It's not easy to answer a verse which tells the Christian to not Judge; though there is a book in the Bible called Judges. It’s also not easy to answer someone when they say they don’t have to go to Church to be Saved; because they are right. ~ Perhaps this admission is enough to cause you to relax; and listen. You ask, “Why then do you feel that you have to write a Gospel Tract to the Unchurched Church?”

There are a few reasons. First, the Bible says we know that we’ve passed from death to life because we love the brethren; anyone who does not love remains in death. People tell me that it is the Bible thumping Christians that turn them off and we are starting to make them hate Church; but shouldn’t you expect us to be into our Bibles? Okay, let me stop talking about you and use myself as an example; can I have your opinion on something? When I was a child I got ‘Saved’ at AWANA’s but after I grew up I decided to stop going to Church. I would sing that song “Shout! Shout! Shout at the Devil!” and do drugs. Long story short, around the age of 37 I got ‘Saved’. Here’s the question; at which time in my life did I really get Saved? ~ I wouldn't risk my soul by betting on which day I was Saved, but the Bible leads me to believe that I was Saved later; when I truly understood my Sin. Have you ever accepted Christ as your Savior but never go to Church because of 'those hypocrites'? The Bible tells us that the Church is the 'one' Bride of Christ; if you are Saved then you are his Bride. The Scriptures also ask us, ‘What person doesn’t love and care for themselves?’ If you are the Bride of Christ and I’m also the Bride of Christ; how could you almost start to hate me? What Bride could ever hate herself?? The Church and the Bride are synonymous…

Perhaps you went to a Church that didn't preach the Law and the Gospel? Lying, Stealing, Adultery and Hatred are Sins, to name a few; and Sinners go to Hell for all eternity. But we are Saved by the Grace of God, through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Risen ‘Lord’ and Savior; apart from any good deeds we could do to earn this. ~ If you only listen to one thing I say, hear this; The Bible says that those who left ‘us’ (the Church) were never of 'us' (the Bride). This should send chills down your spine! What if you were like I was and not Saved when I quit? You’ve stopped going to Church and live like Hell; we are known by our fruit. ~ Jesus Christ is our first Love; but that means we have a Second Love; right? Come back home…

2nd Corinthians 13:5 NIV; Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What about the carnal christian idea ?

Yes, I believe Bob is a great example of a "carnal Christian".
Notice how he refuses to end an argument, he refuses to agree to disagree, he continues to argue over and over, and does so by MISREPRESENTING what we believe, refusing to accept correction.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
SO then "I" means absolutely nothing. Most of us agree about that.
'Irresistible' is a poor term in this case. 'Inevitable' is better. You may resist for a while or for a long time, but you will inevitably surrender--and of your own free will. Most Calvinists think in terms of necessity, traditionally following the philosophical error of Edwards in thinking that there's no difference between necessity and certainty. Necessity leaves no real alternative possibilities in this world. Every fork in the road is merely apparent, as the course is infallibly set. Calvinists affirm it and Arminians reject it. But the Biblical truth is that God determines men’s destinies through certainty alone and not by necessity. Certainty does not remove from possibility all alternative courses of action, like necessity does. With certainty, a world of innumerable alternative possibilities exists, but it remains utterly certain which of the many possible courses of action will be chosen. With a scheme of necessity, men must be forcibly regenerated or they will perish, without any real choosing on their part. But certainty recognizes that men do have a choice of which they are indeed capable of making, and it recognizes both the warrant to offer salvation through Christ to all (even the nonelect) and the need for divine influence to “woo” and pursue and persuade free sinners to believe.

A side note: the "&" between 'Arminianism & Calvinism' stands for a whole spectrum of views that span the difference between the two extremes. As a Middler or Centrist, it is my conviction that the Biblical truth is shared in part by both ends and is found in whole in the middle. God did unconditionally choose His elect from eternity past, and saves them without fail as he meticulously carries out His plan; but in this temporal world, God calls all men to repent, salvation is contingent only on men freely choosing to believe in Christ, with every such surrender due only to God's gracious influences.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Yes, I believe Bob is a great example of a "carnal Christian".
Notice how he refuses to end an argument, he refuses to agree to disagree, he continues to argue over and over, and does so by MISREPRESENTING what we believe, refusing to accept correction.
Except that you never submit any explanation of "what you believe" other than "You're WRONG", or "This doesn't mean that".

So WHY does "Irresistable" not mean "Irresistable"??? And if something is "Irresistable", then how is there "No force" in it???
 

e v e

Super Member
'Irresistible' is a poor term in this case. 'Inevitable' is better. You may resist for a while or for a long time, but you will inevitably surrender--and of your own free will. Most Calvinists think in terms of necessity, traditionally following the philosophical error of Edwards in thinking that there's no difference between necessity and certainty. Necessity leaves no real alternative possibilities in this world. Every fork in the road is merely apparent, as the course is infallibly set. Calvinists affirm it and Arminians reject it. But the Biblical truth is that God determines men’s destinies through certainty alone and not by necessity. Certainty does not remove from possibility all alternative courses of action, like necessity does. With certainty, a world of innumerable alternative possibilities exists, but it remains utterly certain which of the many possible courses of action will be chosen. With a scheme of necessity, men must be forcibly regenerated or they will perish, without any real choosing on their part. But certainty recognizes that men do have a choice of which they are indeed capable of making, and it recognizes both the warrant to offer salvation through Christ to all (even the nonelect) and the need for divine influence to “woo” and pursue and persuade free sinners to believe.

A side note: the "&" between 'Arminianism & Calvinism' stands for a whole spectrum of views that span the difference between the two extremes. As a Middler or Centrist, it is my conviction that the Biblical truth is shared in part by both ends and is found in whole in the middle. God did unconditionally choose His elect from eternity past, and saves them without fail as he meticulously carries out His plan; but in this temporal world, God calls all men to repent, salvation is contingent only on men freely choosing to believe in Christ, with every such surrender due only to God's gracious influences.
necessity is a greek pagan concept, actually, glued to christianity on purpose.

horrible
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Except that you never submit any explanation of "what you believe" other than "You're WRONG", or "This doesn't mean that".

So WHY does "Irresistable" not mean "Irresistable"??? And if something is "Irresistable", then how is there "No force" in it???
If you ate some ice cream in spite of your diet--because you found it irresistible--was there force involved?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Except that you never submit any explanation of "what you believe" other than "You're WRONG", or "This doesn't mean that".

So WHY does "Irresistable" not mean "Irresistable"??? And if something is "Irresistable", then how is there "No force" in it???

Why are you so incredibly insecure in your beliefs that you can't stand the thought of someone disagreeing with you?
 
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