No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

brightfame52

Well-known member
I simply believe Scripture:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

You should try it sometime.



UnBiblical.
Is there a scriptural basis for believing that the Father draws to Christ, that the Son draws to Christ, that the Spirit draws to Christ ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The Father and the Son draw, the Holy Spirit reproves.
The Holy Spirit leads as well doesnt He ? Rom 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And He leads the redeemed sons of God to believe in Christ, for He leads into all truth Jn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jn 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Verse 33 is why He had said verse 32.

It is not the same message in regards to the Father because not everyone that saw Him crucified, believed in Him, certainly not the Pharisees that put Him there. ( Granted, Jesus gave up His life; the Jews did not really take it away from Him )

John 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So the scripture that singled out the Father by that exception for how men are drawn unto the Son means only the Father did it. Yes, His crucifixion on the cross was the focus as to Who the Father was drawing them to, but still only the Father does this by the use of that word "except" in His words. Indeed, this scripture testify that the Father gives those to be saved to the Son per the father's will.

John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
To be honest, all three persons in the Godhead draws to Christ, The Father and Son and the Holy Spirit. The whole point of this thread is being missed, which is man naturally cannot believe on Christ for Salvation unless God causes it, even if we say specifically unless the Father causes it, thats fine with me. Do you understand that ? Man by nature doesnt have freewill to believe in Christ !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
How does a person come if it’s not freely? Do they come against there own will ?
God causes them to come voluntarily, freely Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Show the scripture where it declares He doesnt draw to Christ, thats your Homework assignment. The Spirit is God isnt He ?
Did the Holy Spirit send Himself ?

Did the Father send the Spirit ?

Did the Son send the Spirit ?

You really do not know how the Triune God functions at all.

Did you know the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have different roles and functions ?

Do the husband and wife have different roles/functions in a marriage and family ? yes or no

Do members of the body of Christ have different roles/functions ?

Is man made in the image of God ? yes or no

Answers to these questions will be your first clue since you have not studied the Godhead.

hope this helps !!!
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Show me a verse where it says the Spirit doesnt draw men , thats your assignment !
sorry there big fella you don't get to make the rules and you were asked by me first to back up your claim with scripture and I asked to you question which you FAILED MISERABLY.

BTW- I know all the passage on the Trinity and which Person does what, obviously you have never studied the Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

And enjoy your strawman arguments since no one but you and your shadow are buying them .
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Is there a scriptural basis for believing that the Father draws to Christ, that the Son draws to Christ, that the Spirit draws to Christ ?
No you need to study the Trinity and the different roles and functions between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Your view is more like oneness heretics who see them as the same without distinction. Your ignorance on the Trinity is shining through with your every response and question. You should go over to the Trinity forum so both sides( Trinitarians and Unitarians) can chew you up and spit you out.

hope this helps !!!
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I have a book that was recommended to me from a friend by a person named Bruce Ware called Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Relationships, Roles and Relevance. It helped me to understand the different roles and function within the Trinity like you pointed out. Have you heard of that book if so would you recommend it ?
Yes that is a good book. I bought that book when in first came out back in 2005. He did a great job explaining their roles with plenty of scriptures showing how the Trinity functions within those given roles and relationships.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Can you explain the difference between willingly and freely I’m not sure I understand the difference or the point you are making. Thank you Theo1689.
I kinda wonder that myself. I see willingly and freely as synonyms. But I could be wrong. What God does in the act of regeneration is He frees the will from the bondage of sin and Satan so they can freely come to Him.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I have a book that was recommended to me from a friend by a person named Bruce Ware called Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Relationships, Roles and Relevance. It helped me to understand the different roles and function within the Trinity like you pointed out. Have you heard of that book if so would you recommend it ?
The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James White is a worthwhile read.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I kinda wonder that myself. I see willingly and freely as synonyms. But I could be wrong. What God does in the act of regeneration is He frees the will from the bondage of sin and Satan so they can freely come to Him.
I see it just the way you explained it above in bold. Maybe Theo will elaborate on it for us.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Good question....
God regenerates the elect, turning their heart of stone into a heart of flesh (Ezek. 11:19, 36:26), and causes them to love God and come to Him.

Please read Rom. 6:16-22.

It teaches us that that men are either "slaves of sin" (prior to regeneration), or "slaves of righteousness" (after regeneration). They are ALWAYS slaves, they are never "free agents". And this passage teaches that "thanks be to GOD" that we have become slaves of righteousness.
Thats only half the story of Romans 6. Verse 16 makes clear that whatever you serve is a matter of whom you "yield yourselves" to. Thats the freedom of will and choice, Josh 24:15.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Thats only half the story of Romans 6. Verse 16 makes clear that whatever you serve is a matter of whom you "yield yourselves" to. Thats the freedom of will and choice, Josh 24:15.
So you are saying the unsaved are not slaves to sin and that sin is not their master ?
 

cadwell

Well-known member
So you are saying the unsaved are not slaves to sin and that sin is not their master ?
I am saying what the bible does, that the unsaved that serve their master sin have yielded themselves to it (Romans 6:16). The freedom is the choice of master (Jer 24:15).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Show the scripture where it declares He doesnt draw to Christ, thats your Homework assignment. The Spirit is God isnt He ?

1) You're assuming your view, and trying to shift the burden of proof to "disprove" something you haven't "proven" in the first palce.

2) The Holy Spirit is not the Father. It seems you are denying the Trinity. Are you claiming the Father died on the cross? The persons of the Trinity are not interchangeable, as you seem to try to make them.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
1) You're assuming your view, and trying to shift the burden of proof to "disprove" something you haven't "proven" in the first palce.

2) The Holy Spirit is not the Father. It seems you are denying the Trinity. Are you claiming the Father died on the cross? The persons of the Trinity are not interchangeable, as you seem to try to make them.
Ditto his/her views seem modalistic.
 
Top