No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Hark]

To be honest, all three persons in the Godhead draws to Christ, The Father and Son and the Holy Spirit. The whole point of this thread is being missed, which is man naturally cannot believe on Christ for Salvation unless God causes it, even if we say specifically unless the Father causes it, thats fine with me. Do you understand that ? Man by nature doesnt have freewill to believe in Christ !

I agree with the bold portion of your quote.

Another poster at one time I had read shared that "draw" in scripture literally mean "drag". Not sure where he or she got that from, but it should depict that there is no free will involved when the Father has to drag them towards the Son to believe in Him to be saved and I think it has something to do with their sinful nature in their flesh for why the Father has to do this. So yeah... there is no free will there.

When I had chosen that day to serve Jesus Christ & nothing else in His name, I was taught by the Lord that there is no power in that decision, meaning I had no will power to carry it out, but by relying on Him all the time as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him is the only way I have been serving Him and nothing else in His name.

Since the Father also hides the Truth from the prudent & the wise and yet reveal them to babes to believe in His Son to be saved, is another reason why I give sole credit to the drawing unto the Son by the Father. Matthew 11:25-27

Even Jesus acknowledges that it is the Father that gives them to Him to be saved. John 6:37-40

 

[Theo1689]

Can you explain the difference between willingly and freely I’m not sure I understand the difference or the point you are making. Thank you Theo1689.

Certainly.

"Willingly" means "according to the will".

"Freely" means (to many Christians) that we have the power to control our will.
But we don't, and the Bible never claims we do.

Calvinists believe that men have "wills". We have desires, and our choices are based on our greatest desire. But we cannot control our desires. For instance, I hate peas, and love chocolate, and can't change that. For instance, I love God, and believe in God, and can't change that (even if I wanted to, which I don't). There are unbelievers who have said they WANT to believe in God, but can't.

Arminians believe we have "free will".
Calvinists believe we have a "will" (which is not free, it is either enslaved in sin, or enslaved in righteousness, Rom. 6:16-22).

So we aren't saved "against our will", since God CHANGES our will to love Him, when He replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

 

[Theo1689]

Thats only half the story of Romans 6. Verse 16 makes clear that whatever you serve is a matter of whom you "yield yourselves" to. Thats the freedom of will and choice, Josh 24:15.

Where does Rom. 6 teach that who we yield ourselves to is a matter of "freedom of will and choice"? You seem to be ASSUMING that, since it is nowhere to be found in the text.

In fact, in Rom. 6 it says that "thanks be to GOD" that we have become slaves of righteousness. If it was a matter of merely our own "freedom of will and choice", we would have ourselves to thank, rather than God.

Btw, Rom. 6:16ff teaches that we are "slaves" ("douloi") of either sin or righteousness, not merely voluntary "servants" ("diakonoi"). Slaves don't have the "freedom" to "choose" who their master will be.

As for Josh 24:15, it is irrelevant to the discussion, and doesn't teach "free will". If you would bother to actually READ your proof-text, it is directed at those who have ALREADY REJECTED God, and is a "choice" between two sets of FALSE gods:

Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[Theo1689]

To be honest, all three persons in the Godhead draws to Christ, The Father and Son and the Holy Spirit.

That's simply not Biblical.

 

[brightfame52]

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Theo1689]

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Just for clarification... Does that say, "Holy Spirit", or does that say, "Father"?
Maybe one of us needs our eyes checked...

 

[guest1]

Just for clarification... Does that say, "Holy Spirit", or does that say, "Father"?
Maybe one of us needs our eyes checked...

Closet oneness

 

[cadwell]

Where does Rom. 6 teach that who we yield ourselves to is a matter of "freedom of will and choice"? You seem to be ASSUMING that, since it is nowhere to be found in the text

In fact, in Rom. 6 it says that "thanks be to GOD" that we have become slaves of righteousness. If it was a matter of merely our own "freedom of will and choice", we would have ourselves to thank, rather than God.

In its entirety, verse 17 mentions the doctrine that is obeyed (ie the Gospel). It is more than just a matter of becoming slaves to righteousness, and God is always to be thanked for making our choice possible. Thanking God for that does not negate that we chose whom to serve, we yielded ourselves to Him.

Btw, Rom. 6:16ff teaches that we are "slaves" ("douloi") of either sin or righteousness, not merely voluntary "servants" ("diakonoi"). Slaves don't have the "freedom" to "choose" who their master will be.

Slaves in general might not choose their master, but this specific slave in these passages do in fact choose their master:

Romans 6
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Josh 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

There is no getting around the fact that while we are always either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness, there exists a moment in time outside of the two that we go from one to another. That is biblically stated to be a choice, a matter of yielding yourself, and nothing has been presented that says that choice is bound. That is what makes it free.

As for Josh 24:15, it is irrelevant to the discussion, and doesn't teach "free will". If you would bother to actually READ your proof-text, it is directed at those who have ALREADY REJECTED God, and is a "choice" between two sets of FALSE gods:

Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I dont want to go into a long debate about it, but there are two grave errors in what you just said.

1) It is not "directed at those who ALREADY REJECTED God. If you take time to study the story up to this verse, Joshua has conquered the promised land with the people who were 19 and under when God said that their unbelieving elders and parents would never see it. So the ones who rejected God never made it to the promised land in the first place. Thats why Joshua continually refers to "your fathers", he is talking about the people who were never allowed to be there. They were the ones serving other gods (josh 24:2)

2) He is not telling them to choose between "two sets of FALSE gods". You would again be well served to read the whole story.

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Their choices were to either A) serve the Lord, or B) if it seemed evil to serve the Lord, choose another god. At that point he gave two examples of other gods: the gods their fathers served which got them left out of the promised land, or the gods of the people whose land they just took. They said they would never serve other gods (verse 16), and proclaimed that they would serve the Lord (verse 21). Of course they ended up backsliding as usual, but at that moment, they had not rejected God, had been given a choice to serve Him or not, and chose to serve Him. They yielded themselves to Him and chose to be servants of righteousness, which is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6.

 

[Theo1689]

In its entirety, verse 17 mentions the doctrine that is obeyed (ie the Gospel). It is more than just a matter of becoming slaves to righteousness, and God is always to be thanked for making our choice possible. Thanking God for that does not negate that we chose whom to serve, we yielded ourselves to Him.

Slaves in general might not choose their master, but this specific slave in these passages do in fact choose their master:

Romans 6
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Josh 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

There is no getting around the fact that while we are always either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness, there exists a moment in time outside of the two that we go from one to another. That is biblically stated to be a choice, a matter of yielding yourself, and nothing has been presented that says that choice is bound. That is what makes it free.

I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I dont want to go into a long debate about it, but there are two grave errors in what you just said.

1) It is not "directed at those who ALREADY REJECTED God. If you take time to study the story up to this verse, Joshua has conquered the promised land with the people who were 19 and under when God said that their unbelieving elders and parents would never see it. So the ones who rejected God never made it to the promised land in the first place. Thats why Joshua continually refers to "your fathers", he is talking about the people who were never allowed to be there. They were the ones serving other gods (josh 24:2)

2) He is not telling them to serve between "two sets of FALSE gods". You would again be well served to read the whole story.

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Their choices were to either A) serve the Lord, or B) if it seemed evil to serve the Lord, choose another god. At that point he gave two examples of other gods: the gods their fathers served which got them left out of the promised land, or the gods of the people whose land they just took. They said they would never serve other gods (verse 16), and proclaimed that they would serve the Lord (verse 21). Of course they ended up backsliding as usual, but at that moment, they had not rejected God, had been given a choice to serve Him or not, and chose to serve Him. They yielded themselves to Him and chose to be servants of righteousness, which is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6.

Sorry, you're simply eisegeting, and trying to INSERT "free will" in to the Scriptures.
I go by what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say, not what I "want" them to say, as you do.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with the bold portion of your quote.

Another poster at one time I had read shared that "draw" in scripture literally mean "drag". Not sure where he or she got that from, but it should depict that there is no free will involved when the Father has to drag them towards the Son to believe in Him to be saved and I think it has something to do with their sinful nature in their flesh for why the Father has to do this. So yeah... there is no free will there.

When I had chosen that day to serve Jesus Christ & nothing else in His name, I was taught by the Lord that there is no power in that decision, meaning I had no will power to carry it out, but by relying on Him all the time as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him is the only way I have been serving Him and nothing else in His name.

Since the Father also hides the Truth from the prudent & the wise and yet reveal them to babes to believe in His Son to be saved, is another reason why I give sole credit to the drawing unto the Son by the Father. Matthew 11:25-27

Even Jesus acknowledges that it is the Father that gives them to Him to be saved. John 6:37-40

The word does mean to drag , when you think about it, to drag doesnt have to mean that its against the persons will. If you were trapped under a burning car, the rescuers may have to drag you from up under it, by using their effort, exerting their strength. I believe the emphasis is in the fact that the drawing is by omnipotent power, making certain an intended result. The sinner believes according to Gods mighty power Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

 

[brightfame52]

Just for clarification... Does that say, "Holy Spirit", or does that say, "Father"?
Maybe one of us needs our eyes checked...

Just for clarification:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Theo1689]

Just for clarification:

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Dodging questions again, I see...
You are clearly unteachable...

 

[guest1]

Dodging questions again, I see...
You are clearly unteachable...

Ditto

 

[cadwell]

Sorry, you're simply eisegeting, and trying to INSERT "free will" in to the Scriptures.
I go by what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say, not what I "want" them to say, as you do.

The scripture says that the slave can choose their master, while you say that a slave cannot.

Romans 6
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Josh 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Your entire argument hinges upon the idea that man is always enslaved, while the bible speaks of a transition between masters that is described as a yielding, a choice. Outside of bondage is freedom.

 

[brightfame52]

Dodging questions again, I see...
You are clearly unteachable...

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Theo1689]

Another poster at one time I had read shared that "draw" in scripture literally mean "drag". Not sure where he or she got that from,

Um, just about any and every Greek lexicon.
Let's see....
- BDAG;
- Strong's
- Thayer's
- Louw & Nida;

In general, "draw" and "drag" are synonyms, but "drag" would sometimes be used if there is a physical attachment to the object, such as the people "dragging" Paul to the courts. But even when there is a physical connection, "draw" is often used, such as drawing water from a well (with a rope on the bucket), drawing a net of fish, or drawing a carriage with a horse.

Draw is also used when we "draw" a pencil across a piece of paper, or when we physically open a "draw-er" with our hand.

People mistakenly (misguided by their false theology) assume that "draw" has some sort of weaker application than "drag", but that is simply not the case.

but it should depict that there is no free will involved when the Father has to drag them towards the Son to believe in Him to be saved and I think it has something to do with their sinful nature in their flesh for why the Father has to do this. So yeah... there is no free will there.

And that is precisely why people try to "weaken" the word "draw", to make it something more than "wooing" or "coaxing", because they want to preserve their false teaching of "free will".

 

[guest1]

Straight out of dumb and dumber , unbelievable bf. A modalist is disguise.

 

[Theo1689]

The scripture says that the slave can choose their master,

No, it doesn't.

Romans 6
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You are reading FAR too much into "yield yourselves".
That's called "eisegesis".

Josh 24:15

I've already addressed this.
You stand refuted.
You can keep repeating yourself over and over, as if you're trying to brainwash me, but repeating yourself isn't going to change falsehood into truth.

Your entire argument hinges upon the idea that man is always enslaved,

... because that's PRECISELY what Rom. 6 teaches.
You simply don't want to accept it.

while the bible speaks of a transition between masters that is described as a yielding, a choice. Outside of bondage is freedom.

Nope.
Nothing about "choice" (of the slave) in Rom. 6.
You are reading that INTO the text.
Eisegesis.

 

[cadwell]

No, it doesn't.

You are reading FAR too much into "yield yourselves".
That's called "eisegesis".

Yes it does. Choosing whom to serve and whom to yield yourself to is precisely choosing a master.

I've already addressed this.
You stand refuted.
You can keep repeating yourself over and over, as if you're trying to brainwash me, but repeating yourself isn't going to change falsehood into truth.

You made a few large errors in an attempt to discredit a verse, and those errors were pointed out. You claimed victory without addressing the errors you made. Okay then..... Here it is again for anyone interested in truth:

As for Josh 24:15, it is irrelevant to the discussion, and doesn't teach "free will". If you would bother to actually READ your proof-text, it is directed at those who have ALREADY REJECTED God, and is a "choice" between two sets of FALSE gods:

I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I dont want to go into a long debate about it, but there are two grave errors in what you just said.

1) It is not "directed at those who ALREADY REJECTED God. If you take time to study the story up to this verse, Joshua has conquered the promised land with the people who were 19 and under when God said that their unbelieving elders and parents would never see it. So the ones who rejected God never made it to the promised land in the first place. Thats why Joshua continually refers to "your fathers", he is talking about the people who were never allowed to be there. They were the ones serving other gods (josh 24:2)

2) He is not telling them to choose between "two sets of FALSE gods". You would again be well served to read the whole story.

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Their choices were to either A) serve the Lord, or B) if it seemed evil to serve the Lord, choose another god. At that point he gave two examples of other gods: the gods their fathers served which got them left out of the promised land, or the gods of the people whose land they just took. They said they would never serve other gods (verse 16), and proclaimed that they would serve the Lord (verse 21). Of course they ended up backsliding as usual, but at that moment, they had not rejected God, had been given a choice to serve Him or not, and chose to serve Him. They yielded themselves to Him and chose to be servants of righteousness, which is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6.

... because that's PRECISELY what Rom. 6 teaches.
You simply don't want to accept it.

Nope.
Nothing about "choice" (of the slave) in Rom. 6.
You are reading that INTO the text.
Eisegesis.

Romans 6 teaches both ideas: man is perpetually a slave (whether to sin or righteousness), and that switching between one master or the other is a matter of yielding yourself. You affirm the former while ignoring the latter. Meanwhile the bible precept has already laid out the matter of switching masters as a CHOICE (josh 24:15).

You have presented nothing to the contrary.

 

[Hark]

The word does mean to drag , when you think about it, to drag doesnt have to mean that its against the persons will. If you were trapped under a burning car, the rescuers may have to drag you from up under it, by using their effort, exerting their strength. I believe the emphasis is in the fact that the drawing is by omnipotent power, making certain an intended result. The sinner believes according to Gods mighty power Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Since the Father knows who seeks Him from those that prefer their sins rather than to be reproved of them, I can see the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak per the example you set for how the Father is dragging. Thanks for sharing.