No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Theo1689

Well-known member
The scripture says that the slave can choose their master,

No, it doesn't.



Romans 6
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You are reading FAR too much into "yield yourselves".
That's called "eisegesis".

Josh 24:15

I've already addressed this.
You stand refuted.
You can keep repeating yourself over and over, as if you're trying to brainwash me, but repeating yourself isn't going to change falsehood into truth.

Your entire argument hinges upon the idea that man is always enslaved,

... because that's PRECISELY what Rom. 6 teaches.
You simply don't want to accept it.

while the bible speaks of a transition between masters that is described as a yielding, a choice. Outside of bondage is freedom.

Nope.
Nothing about "choice" (of the slave) in Rom. 6.
You are reading that INTO the text.
Eisegesis.
 

cadwell

Member
No, it doesn't.

You are reading FAR too much into "yield yourselves".
That's called "eisegesis".
Yes it does. Choosing whom to serve and whom to yield yourself to is precisely choosing a master.
I've already addressed this.
You stand refuted.
You can keep repeating yourself over and over, as if you're trying to brainwash me, but repeating yourself isn't going to change falsehood into truth.
You made a few large errors in an attempt to discredit a verse, and those errors were pointed out. You claimed victory without addressing the errors you made. Okay then..... Here it is again for anyone interested in truth:
As for Josh 24:15, it is irrelevant to the discussion, and doesn't teach "free will". If you would bother to actually READ your proof-text, it is directed at those who have ALREADY REJECTED God, and is a "choice" between two sets of FALSE gods:
I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I dont want to go into a long debate about it, but there are two grave errors in what you just said.

1) It is not "directed at those who ALREADY REJECTED God. If you take time to study the story up to this verse, Joshua has conquered the promised land with the people who were 19 and under when God said that their unbelieving elders and parents would never see it. So the ones who rejected God never made it to the promised land in the first place. Thats why Joshua continually refers to "your fathers", he is talking about the people who were never allowed to be there. They were the ones serving other gods (josh 24:2)

2) He is not telling them to choose between "two sets of FALSE gods". You would again be well served to read the whole story.

14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Their choices were to either A) serve the Lord, or B) if it seemed evil to serve the Lord, choose another god. At that point he gave two examples of other gods: the gods their fathers served which got them left out of the promised land, or the gods of the people whose land they just took. They said they would never serve other gods (verse 16), and proclaimed that they would serve the Lord (verse 21). Of course they ended up backsliding as usual, but at that moment, they had not rejected God, had been given a choice to serve Him or not, and chose to serve Him. They yielded themselves to Him and chose to be servants of righteousness, which is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6.
... because that's PRECISELY what Rom. 6 teaches.
You simply don't want to accept it.

Nope.
Nothing about "choice" (of the slave) in Rom. 6.
You are reading that INTO the text.
Eisegesis.
Romans 6 teaches both ideas: man is perpetually a slave (whether to sin or righteousness), and that switching between one master or the other is a matter of yielding yourself. You affirm the former while ignoring the latter. Meanwhile the bible precept has already laid out the matter of switching masters as a CHOICE (josh 24:15).

You have presented nothing to the contrary.
 

Hark

Well-known member
The word does mean to drag , when you think about it, to drag doesnt have to mean that its against the persons will. If you were trapped under a burning car, the rescuers may have to drag you from up under it, by using their effort, exerting their strength. I believe the emphasis is in the fact that the drawing is by omnipotent power, making certain an intended result. The sinner believes according to Gods mighty power Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Since the Father knows who seeks Him from those that prefer their sins rather than to be reproved of them, I can see the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak per the example you set for how the Father is dragging. Thanks for sharing.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And here we go....
You can't convince me with Scripture, truth, and facts, so you have to try to brainwash me into your false teaching by repeating yourself ad nauseam.

Look, you disagree with me.
I disagree with you.
You have presented your view.
I have presented mine.
Drop it, and move on, okay?

Yes it does. Choosing whom to serve and whom to yield yourself to is precisely choosing a master.

Again, try actually READING Josh. 24:15. The "choosing" doesn't happen until AFTER they have "refused;

1) And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD,
2) choose this day whom you will serve,
........ choice 2a) whether the gods your fathers served
.......................... in the region beyond the River,
........ choice 2b) or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
3) But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

NOTHING about "choosing" the LORD.
The "choosing" came AFTER.
The "choice" was between two sets of FALSE gods.

You made a few large errors in an attempt to discredit a verse, and those errors were pointed out. You claimed victory without addressing the errors you made.

YOU claimed "victory" by PROCLAIMING I made "a few large errors" which you failed to prove.

Okay then..... Here it is again for anyone interested in truth:

Why are you repeating yourself?
Do you think they didn't understand you the first time?
Or it is your goal to try to brainwash people into falsehood by repetitious assertions?

I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I dont want to go into a long debate about it, but there are two grave errors in what you just said.

I see...
So even though this bankrupt argument has been presented to me hundreds of times in the past, and hasn't been true for any of them, I'm supposed to shut off my brain, have a frontal lobotomy, and blindly accept anything and everything you say, simply because YOU claim it's true?

And when God asks me why I believe it, I'm supposed to answer him, "Well, some random guy on the Internet swore to me that it was actually true, and he repeated it several times, so I figured it must be. Better for me to blindly accept the silliness of a stranger, than to believe the brain that God gave me!"

Sorry, I don't think so.

1) It is not "directed at those who ALREADY REJECTED God.

Read your own proof-text!
It most certainly IS!

Josh. 24:15 And if (1) it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD,
(2) choose this day whom you will serve,

(1) reject the Lord;
(2) choose OTHER gods.

2) He is not telling them to choose between "two sets of FALSE gods". You would again be well served to read the whole story.

Once again, YOU would be well served to read your OWN "proof-text"!:

Josh. 24:15 (1) choose this day whom you will serve,
(choice A) whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River,
(choice B) or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.

Their choices were to either A) serve the Lord, or B) if it seemed evil to serve the Lord,

Wrong.
The word "choose" came AFTER they "considered it evil to serve the Lord".
You can't simply "scramble" Scripture, and rearrange the words in your (not God's) preferred order, like some kidnapper making a ransom message out of newspaper words.

Romans 6 teaches both ideas: man is perpetually a slave (whether to sin or righteousness), and that switching between one master or the other is a matter of yielding yourself. You affirm the former while ignoring the latter. Meanwhile the bible precept has already laid out the matter of switching masters as a CHOICE (josh 24:15).

Wrong again.
You are INSERTING "free will" into Rom. 6, where it nowhere exists.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.


1) They WERE "slaves of sin" (v.17);
2) They "have been set free" (PASSIVE voice, it was something done TO them, not something they did to themselves:
3) "Thanks be to God", because HE was the One who set them free from sin.

Why does v.18 NOT say, "having set yourselves free from sin"?
Why does v.17 NOT say, "Thanks be to yourselves, good job!"?

You have presented nothing to the contrary.

You keep telling yourself that...
 

JDS

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65


64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
Attention all Calvinists. In this post I am going to give you the truth of this John chapter 6 and what Jesus means by telling the Jews that they cannot come to him unless the Father draws them. After this post there will be no excuse for you to continue misleading people and being confused of what is being said. Yes, I know you might have a few lingering questions and I will try to answer them for you.

As a preliminary, consider that Jesus presents himself in SEVEN "I AM" declarations in the gospel of John. The first is in John 6, when he says in V 35 "I AM the bread of life. Here they all are.

1) I Am the Bread of Life. Jn 6:35
2) I AM the light of the world Jn 8:12
3) I AM the door -Jon 10:9
4) I AM the Good Shepherd Jn 10:11
5) I Am the Resurrection and the Life Jn 11:25
6) I Am the way, the truth, and the life Jn 14:6
7) I Am the True Vine Jn 15:1

Focus on the manna that the Father has sent down from heaven in the OT as picturing the true bread from heaven. Eating the manna surely sustained the children of Israel in the wilderness as they gathered it every day, but they must eat it. The manna laying on the ground did them no good. But the physical picture can only go so far. The true bread must be eaten only one time and it will sustain them forever. This is the truth Jesus was giving them. Life depended on them eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he said to them. He goes on to tell them his words are spelling out spiritual truth and was not meant to be taken in a physical way. He would indwell them, as we can later see, in the person of the Spirit. He must be in them for them to have "eternal" life. Those who the Father was drawing were those who knew his word, who knew about the manna and who recognized Jesus as the one whom the Father sent down from heaven to give life. The physical types always pictures spiritual truths. This is the way of God.

There is no excuse for a whole movement of people, the Calvinists, claiming they are a special class of elect, who have an entire bible, to miss the truth that we are given in this typological message of Jesus Christ to his people, the Jews.

Would anyone like to guess how many of the crowd were drawn and had life? How about none of them. Why? Because they were not chosen and drawn? No, because they were a bunch of Calvinistic Jews that did not have a clue about the manna and the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood. They were secure in their election and they did not want to be moved away from their presuppositions that God was going to save them, and only them, and this eating of Jesus Christ's flesh and drinking his blood was obnoxious to them.

There is much more to say about this wonderful chapter but there must be some correction of Calvinistic theology going forward.
 

cadwell

Member
Again, try actually READING Josh. 24:15. The "choosing" doesn't happen until AFTER they have "refused;

1) And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD,
2) choose this day whom you will serve,
........ choice 2a) whether the gods your fathers served
.......................... in the region beyond the River,
........ choice 2b) or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
3) But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

NOTHING about "choosing" the LORD.
The "choosing" came AFTER.
The "choice" was between two sets of FALSE gods.
Repeating a falsehood wont make it true, and ripping a verse out of context doesnt help your case.

Josh 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. <<<<<< Thats their first choice. Todays new arbitrary rule is that CHOOSE has to be in a specific place in order for something to be a choice. The word "choose/choice" doesnt have to be there in order to make it so, the first option is always serve the Lord.

15a And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord... <<<< Thats the setup to the second choice. If serving the Lord is evil to you, then....

15b ......choose you this day whom ye will serve;........<<<<< There is the second choice. If they had a problem with serving the Lord (choice 1), they can choose to server another god (choice 2). For example, Joshua says, they can choose either........

15c the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell

His audience arent the ones who refused the Lord, it was "their fathers", the ones who were never allowed to see the promised land. The only ones mentioned in this entire chapter as serving other gods, were "their fathers". 15a is a hypothetical, not saying anyone has rejected God, and the rest of the chapter affirms that the people had in fact chosen God.
YOU claimed "victory" by PROCLAIMING I made "a few large errors" which you failed to prove.

Why are you repeating yourself?
Do you think they didn't understand you the first time?
Or it is your goal to try to brainwash people into falsehood by repetitious assertions?

I see...
So even though this bankrupt argument has been presented to me hundreds of times in the past, and hasn't been true for any of them, I'm supposed to shut off my brain, have a frontal lobotomy, and blindly accept anything and everything you say, simply because YOU claim it's true?

And when God asks me why I believe it, I'm supposed to answer him, "Well, some random guy on the Internet swore to me that it was actually true, and he repeated it several times, so I figured it must be. Better for me to blindly accept the silliness of a stranger, than to believe the brain that God gave me!"

Sorry, I don't think so.
This adds nothing to the discussion.
Read your own proof-text!
It most certainly IS!

Josh. 24:15 And if (1) it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD,
(2) choose this day whom you will serve,

(1) reject the Lord;
(2) choose OTHER gods.



Once again, YOU would be well served to read your OWN "proof-text"!:

Josh. 24:15 (1) choose this day whom you will serve,
(choice A) whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River,
(choice B) or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.



Wrong.
The word "choose" came AFTER they "considered it evil to serve the Lord".
You can't simply "scramble" Scripture, and rearrange the words in your (not God's) preferred order, like some kidnapper making a ransom message out of newspaper words.
Incorrect and repetitive. Nothing in the text suggests anyone considers it evil to serve the Lord.

Josh 24
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods;

Their choices were (1) serve God, and if it seemed evil to them to serve God, (2) serve either the gods their fathers served, or serve the gods of the lands they took.
Wrong again.
You are INSERTING "free will" into Rom. 6, where it nowhere exists.

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.


1) They WERE "slaves of sin" (v.17);
Yes, and then they yielded themselves and became slaves of righteousness. As per the biblical precept, they chose who to serve (Josh 24:15).
2) They "have been set free" (PASSIVE voice, it was something done TO them, not something they did to themselves
3) "Thanks be to God", because HE was the One who set them free from sin.

Between thanking God, and saying they have been set free from sin, Paul directly addresses them going from slaves of sin, to now being obedient to the doctrine they received. Funny you always skip that part. That obedience is the yielding, and the precept is that going from one master to another is a matter of choice. Paul is thanking God for their being slave of righteousness. They are slaves of righteousness because they yielded themselves and chose Him.
Why does v.18 NOT say, "having set yourselves free from sin"?
Why does v.17 NOT say, "Thanks be to yourselves, good job!"?
This doesnt add to the discussion.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Repeating a falsehood wont make it true, and ripping a verse out of context doesnt help your case.

Josh 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. <<<<<< Thats their first choice. Todays new arbitrary rule is that CHOOSE has to be in a specific place in order for something to be a choice. The word "choose/choice" doesnt have to be there in order to make it so, the first option is always serve the Lord.

15a And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord... <<<< Thats the setup to the second choice. If serving the Lord is evil to you, then....

15b ......choose you this day whom ye will serve;........<<<<< There is the second choice. If they had a problem with serving the Lord (choice 1), they can choose to server another god (choice 2). For example, Joshua says, they can choose either........

15c the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell

His audience arent the ones who refused the Lord, it was "their fathers", the ones who were never allowed to see the promised land. The only ones mentioned in this entire chapter as serving other gods, were "their fathers". 15a is a hypothetical, not saying anyone has rejected God, and the rest of the chapter affirms that the people had in fact chosen God.

This adds nothing to the discussion.

Incorrect and repetitive. Nothing in the text suggests anyone considers it evil to serve the Lord.

Josh 24
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods;

Their choices were (1) serve God, and if it seemed evil to them to serve God, (2) serve either the gods their fathers served, or serve the gods of the lands they took.

Yes, and then they yielded themselves and became slaves of righteousness. As per the biblical precept, they chose who to serve (Josh 24:15).



Between thanking God, and saying they have been set free from sin, Paul directly addresses them going from slaves of sin, to now being obedient to the doctrine they received. Funny you always skip that part. That obedience is the yielding, and the precept is that going from one master to another is a matter of choice. Paul is thanking God for their being slave of righteousness. They are slaves of righteousness because they yielded themselves and chose Him.

This doesnt add to the discussion.

You've added nothing to the discussion, you are only repeating your false teachings in a lame attempt to brainwash people.

Good day.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Bingo!

#ThumbsUp
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
You've added nothing to the discussion, you are only repeating your false teachings in a lame attempt to brainwash people.

Good day.
Guess what? You know if you were in a war during OT times and got captured, you had a choice to either go home or become a slave to that nation who captured you!

#WhoKnew?
 

JDS

Well-known member
Some general information that is worth considering.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

The above was spoken in Antioch, Syria after Paul's first missionary journey.

This would have been at least as late as AD 48 when this occurred.

The door is open and one can go through it but no one is drawn through it. Here is an absolutely incredible fact. The door of faith is opened to the gentiles by God, meaning he has made the sacrifice of Christ and his shed blood efficacious for the gentiles and now gentiles can come to him by faith in Christ and be saved. This occurred in Acts 10 and the year was AD 40 when this door was opened. This was over 10 years after the discussion between Jesus and the Jews in the synagogue in Capernaum that took place in John 6. Paul, charged by God as the apostle to the gentiles wrote 13 letters to us in a period of some 30 years and not one time did he use the word draw. Not even one time.

If a man does not come to God through Christ of his own free will he will not come to God at all because Jesus Christ said he is the door. It is false gospel to preach that men are drawn to God and only a few at that. John 6 is not dealing with the characteristics of this present age and the gentile church. Jews are drawn by the writings of the OT but gentiles are invited to be saved by things that are revealed after the OT was complete, knowing nothing about the OT. The NT church is hidden mysteries in past ages that are revealed in this age.

Consider this amazing truth.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I added a rebuttal to a questionable attempt to undermine poor Joshua 24:15.

I didn't "undermine" anything.
I simply refuted your attempt to misrepresent what it said.

Yes, I know... You disagree.
And you're going to keep responding, because you HAVE to have the last word.
You can't just drop it and move on.
I get it.
 

cadwell

Member
Guess what? You know if you were in a war during OT times and got captured, you had a choice to either go home or become a slave to that nation who captured you!

#WhoKnew?
There is a choice of whom to serve (Josh 24:15), and its a matter of whom one yields themselves to serve (Romans 6:16). All the examples in the world of slaves with no choices could ever address this.
 

cadwell

Member
I didn't "undermine" anything.
I simply refuted your attempt to misrepresent what it said.

Yes, I know... You disagree.
And you're going to keep responding, because you HAVE to have the last word.
You can't just drop it and move on.
I get it.
Its not about having the last word, it is about making sure there is an accurate portrayal of my words and intentions. There is no attempt by me to misrepresent anything, only correction of an obvious blunder. Reading Joshua 24 with your interpretation is nonsensical, considering the history and the audience.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Its not about having the last word,

Of course it is.

it is about making sure there is an accurate portrayal of my words and intentions.

Are you claiming you misrepresented yourself in your first post on the subject?
Why do you seem to doubt your own ability to "accurately portray" your position?

There is no attempt by me to misrepresent anything, only correction of an obvious blunder.

So you sincerely don't understand that you're wrong.
That's fair.

Reading Joshua 24 with your interpretation is nonsensical, considering the history and the audience.

Simply claiming something doesn't make it so.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
There is a choice of whom to serve (Josh 24:15), and its a matter of whom one yields themselves to serve (Romans 6:16). All the examples in the world of slaves with no choices could ever address this.

Okay, you've made this same false and unsubstantiated claim at least 5 times already.
How many more times do you have to repeat it before it reaches "brainwashing" status?

Here's a clue... If your assertion were correct, we would AGREE with you.
We don't agree with you, because you are NOT correct.
And repeating it ten million more times still won't make you correct.
 
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