No Salvation Without the Human Element

JDS

Member
The Calvinist system of theology denies through their man made doctrines that salvation is by faith in what God says. Anyone reading this forum would understand that. Does that mean that everyone involved in the Calvinist system are unsaved? No, I don't think so because salvation is a one time event called the new birth and no matter what happens to a person after that the saved person will always be a son of God. Most, if not all Calvinists, did not come to Christ by the evangelistic efforts of Reformed evangelists or teachers. They were proselytized by this system and because the proper response by true bible believers of the past have not rightly categorized Calvinism as a dangerous cult many unsuspecting Christians have fallen for it and have even become promoters of it. This is a great, great error. I can find no doctrines of Calvinism that are not based on faulty logic and an unreasonable approach to commonly accepted hermeneutical principles of interpretation.

Take. for instance, my title above. It would be reasonable to believe what God says on this subject, which is a lot. Let's just look at one example where he says the human element must be present for salvation to occur. This is in the express context of salvation.


Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Okay, what would prompt a sinner to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation? Are we told? You be the judge.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
.
Now, notice what God says in his instructional letters to the churches about how God, the chooser of all things, makes sinners aware of their needs.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you (romans = gentiles) according to my gospel (see Eph 3:1-6), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (this mystery is a reference to the "mystery of Christ" the theme of the epistle to the Ephesians), which was kept secret since (since, not before) the world began,

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

If gentiles hear they can be saved and that is the stated intent of God sending Paul to be the apostle to the gentiles. It is a reasonable conclusion, given the evidence of what he said about himself, about, God, and about the people he was sent to. Logic says If God will not save gentiles unless they hear the gospel, then they must hear the gospel to be saved. Logic also says they must have a preacher.

The question is raised by verse 17 of 2 Tim 4 that I have quoted above, did all the gentiles hear the gospel of Christ like Paul claims? I say yes, not because I can figure it out but simply because he said it under the inspiration of God. God would know. Let me give you a quote from a letter Paul wrote to a church in AD 60. This is 33 years after Paul was converted on the Damascus Road in chapter 9 of Acts. This is 25 years after the gentiles first received gospel preaching through Peter in Acts 10. What does Paul say?

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Does anyone believe Col 1:23 above? Define creature. Define under heaven. Define who Paul was made a minister to. Define past tense of the verb "preached."

In future posts I will prove that God has chosen the human element to save the reader, if indeed he is saved. He is not saved if there was no human element involved. God always gives us a physical illustration of his spiritual truths and he has given a great one to prove these truths I have given today. We will talk about it as time goes on.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Calvinist system of theology denies ...

Objection!
Begging the question... Assuming a doctrine exists, that Calvinists "deny".

... through their man made doctrines ....

Objection!
Poisoning the well.... ASSUMING that our doctrines are "man-made".

(You really are pouring it on thick, aren't you?)

that salvation is by faith in what God says.

Objection!
Assuming facts not in evidence.

Where does the BIBLE say that "salvation is by faith in WHAT GOD SAYS"?

Anyone reading this forum would understand that. Does that mean that everyone involved in the Calvinist system are unsaved? No, I don't think so because salvation is a one time event called the new birth and no matter what happens to a person after that the saved person will always be a son of God.

Anyone want to address the fact that this poster denies you can lose your salvation? ;)


Most, if not all Calvinists, did not come to Christ by the evangelistic efforts of Reformed evangelists or teachers. They were proselytized by this system

Objection!
Assuming facts not in evidence!
I was not "proselytzied" into Calvinism... I accepted it simply by READING THE BIBLE (and believing it).

and because the proper response by true bible believers of the past have not rightly categorized Calvinism as a dangerous cult

Objection!
Ad hominem...

many unsuspecting Christians have fallen for it and have even become promoters of it. This is a great, great error.

Objection!
Presenting opinion as fact!

In future posts I will prove that God has chosen the human element to save the reader,

And what would the "human element" be?

I'm guessing maybe Carbon? ;)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The Calvinist system of theology denies through their man made doctrines that salvation is by faith in what God says. Anyone reading this forum would understand that. Does that mean that everyone involved in the Calvinist system are unsaved? No, I don't think so because salvation is a one time event called the new birth and no matter what happens to a person after that the saved person will always be a son of God. Most, if not all Calvinists, did not come to Christ by the evangelistic efforts of Reformed evangelists or teachers. They were proselytized by this system and because the proper response by true bible believers of the past have not rightly categorized Calvinism as a dangerous cult many unsuspecting Christians have fallen for it and have even become promoters of it. This is a great, great error. I can find no doctrines of Calvinism that are not based on faulty logic and an unreasonable approach to commonly accepted hermeneutical principles of interpretation.

Take. for instance, my title above. It would be reasonable to believe what God says on this subject, which is a lot. Let's just look at one example where he says the human element must be present for salvation to occur. This is in the express context of salvation.


Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Okay, what would prompt a sinner to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation? Are we told? You be the judge.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
.
Now, notice what God says in his instructional letters to the churches about how God, the chooser of all things, makes sinners aware of their needs.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you (romans = gentiles) according to my gospel (see Eph 3:1-6), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (this mystery is a reference to the "mystery of Christ" the theme of the epistle to the Ephesians), which was kept secret since (since, not before) the world began,

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2 Timothy 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

If gentiles hear they can be saved and that is the stated intent of God sending Paul to be the apostle to the gentiles. It is a reasonable conclusion, given the evidence of what he said about himself, about, God, and about the people he was sent to. Logic says If God will not save gentiles unless they hear the gospel, then they must hear the gospel to be saved. Logic also says they must have a preacher.

The question is raised by verse 17 of 2 Tim 4 that I have quoted above, did all the gentiles hear the gospel of Christ like Paul claims? I say yes, not because I can figure it out but simply because he said it under the inspiration of God. God would know. Let me give you a quote from a letter Paul wrote to a church in AD 60. This is 33 years after Paul was converted on the Damascus Road in chapter 9 of Acts. This is 25 years after the gentiles first received gospel preaching through Peter in Acts 10. What does Paul say?

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Does anyone believe Col 1:23 above? Define creature. Define under heaven. Define who Paul was made a minister to. Define past tense of the verb "preached."

In future posts I will prove that God has chosen the human element to save the reader, if indeed he is saved. He is not saved if there was no human element involved. God always gives us a physical illustration of his spiritual truths and he has given a great one to prove these truths I have given today. We will talk about it as time goes on.
Theres the human element in salvation, a spiritually dead human sinner. The only hope this dead sinner has before they can do anything spiritually is be made alive first which he is absolutely passive ! He needs to be spiritually resurrected !
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theres the human element in salvation, a spiritually dead human sinner. The only hope this dead sinner has before they can do anything spiritually is be made alive first which he is absolutely passive ! He needs to be spiritually resurrected !

"You contribute nothing to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary."
-- Jonathan Edwards (well-known for his "Resolutions")
 

JDS

Member
Objection!
Begging the question... Assuming a doctrine exists, that Calvinists "deny".



Objection!
Poisoning the well.... ASSUMING that our doctrines are "man-made".

(You really are pouring it on thick, aren't you?)



Objection!
Assuming facts not in evidence.

Where does the BIBLE say that "salvation is by faith in WHAT GOD SAYS"?



Anyone want to address the fact that this poster denies you can lose your salvation? ;)




Objection!
Assuming facts not in evidence!
I was not "proselytzied" into Calvinism... I accepted it simply by READING THE BIBLE (and believing it).



Objection!
Ad hominem...



Objection!
Presenting opinion as fact!



And what would the "human element" be?

I'm guessing maybe Carbon? ;)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

For those who would like to use the "ignore" feature, but who haven't figured it out, I just stumbled upon it...

You click on the name of the user to get their home page, and there will be an option to "ignore" the poster. Once you select it, you can still see that the poster has responded, but it hides the content. At least it's something.... :)
 

Beloved Daughter

Active member
For those who would like to use the "ignore" feature, but who haven't figured it out, I just stumbled upon it...

You click on the name of the user to get their home page, and there will be an option to "ignore" the poster. Once you select it, you can still see that the poster has responded, but it hides the content. At least it's something.... :)

It works quite well. I have two in that category. No need to clutter the forums.
 

JDS

Member
Theo1689 said:
Objection!
Begging the question... Assuming a doctrine exists, that Calvinists "deny".
Name me a clear and plain statement of scripture you do not turn backward.

The scriptures says in one place that imputed righteousness is by faith that it might be by grace and Calvinism says no, it is by grace that it might be by faith. Is the following not what is said?

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;


Scripture says we have access into saving grace by faith and Calvinism says we have access into saving faith by grace. Check it out here and see for yourself what God says.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

CALVINISM SAYS FAITH IS THE GIFT OF GOD!!!!

This puts faith in the grace column.

I am going to ask a serious question from people I believe are very intelligent but blinder than any bat on planet earth.

How can this statement stand if faith is the gift of God and is a matter of his grace? Read it and respond.

For by grace are you saved through faith. Eph 2:8

Do not attempt to blow smoke at me. Answer the question.
 

JDS

Member
Theres the human element in salvation, a spiritually dead human sinner. The only hope this dead sinner has before they can do anything spiritually is be made alive first which he is absolutely passive ! He needs to be spiritually resurrected !
You will have to demonstrate at some point that you have some understanding of the Christian faith before anyone can carry on an intelligent conversation with you. You are making ridiculous statements over and over again that are utterly untrue and it seems you cannot be corrected.

You have a warped view of spiritual death and you have a warped understanding of the new birth.

Where do we go from here?

Here is one thing that is for sure. No one can be saved apart from the influence and contributions of other men. It is not possible because of the nature of salvation. If it were possible God would have done it that way, but he did not because it is not possible. I remind you that Jesus Christ is a man.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You will have to demonstrate at some point that you have some understanding of the Christian faith before anyone can carry on an intelligent conversation with you. You are making ridiculous statements over and over again that are utterly untrue and it seems you cannot be corrected.

You have a warped view of spiritual death and you have a warped understanding of the new birth.

Where do we go from here?

Here is one thing that is for sure. No one can be saved apart from the influence and contributions of other men. It is not possible because of the nature of salvation. If it were possible God would have done it that way, but he did not because it is not possible. I remind you that Jesus Christ is a man.
I demonstrate by my posts and use of scripture, whether you agree or not ! Man is Dead spiritually by nature !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I demonstrate by my posts and use of scripture, whether you agree or not ! Man is Dead spiritually by nature !
Rather you misuse scripture

Interpreting certain passages according to your theology and apart from context and then using it to contradict passages which are clearly against your views
 

civic

Active member
You will have to demonstrate at some point that you have some understanding of the Christian faith before anyone can carry on an intelligent conversation with you.

Here is one thing that is for sure. No one can be saved apart from the influence and contributions of other men. It is not possible because of the nature of salvation. If it were possible God would have done it that way, but he did not because it is not possible. I remind you that Jesus Christ is a man.
Salvation is of, by, through the Lord period. You have things backwards.

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

hope this helps !!!
 

JDS

Member
Salvation is of, by, through the Lord period. You have things backwards.

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 26:25-27
I will
sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you…27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you
a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 11:8
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 13:48 “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5
He saved us
, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

James 1:18
Of his own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

hope this helps !!!
How does pasting all these verses contradict what I said? All of them are in the plural. Every one. There is absolutely nothing about you, the man who calls himself Civic, in any of those passages. None of those actions of God is accomplished without the human equation as his basis for doing them.

God said he has chosen the foolishness' of preaching to save them that believe. You come along and agree that preaching of the cross is foolishness, thus certifying that God knew what he was talking about by the response of men who have a different way of salvation.

You need to repent. The day is far spent.
 
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