No Salvation Without the Human Element

TomFL

Well-known member
The only human element in Salvation is a spiritually dead corpse, its only hope is if God will graciously, mercifully make it alive so it can act !
The bible never mentions a spiritually dead corpse

You have to go outside the bible and import that idea into the scripture
 

JDS

Well-known member
Spiritual death is the opposite of spiritual life. A sinner is dead by virtue of not having the presence of the Spirit of God indwelling his body, along with his soul. A sinner is alive when he is quickened by the presence of the indwelling Spirit of God. The operative word is presence. He is alive eternally because the Spirit is not only life, but his life. His eternal presence is what Jesus meant when he promised I will never leave thee nor forsake thee.
Now, a sinner who is saved by the Spirit's indwelling is not made smarter, wiser, or able to think or reason any better because he is saved and has the Spirit. The possibility is there to do so but a sinner who gets saved is likened to a new born babe in Christ and must grow in his new family, casting off the old and putting on the new. Receiving the Spirit by faith in Christ is the new birth when a man is born into the family of God and becomes a son of God.
This is how simple it is. No one should have a problem understanding the logic in this. To watch how contorted this great truth is by some on these forums is instructive and shows how blind false religion can make the mind.

Salvation is a NT doctrine. No one was saved in the OT because no one had the Spirit of God dwelling in his body except Adam and Jesus Christ. Men in the OT who believed what God said to them were "justified" their faith being imputed to them for righteousness but they could not be saved until Jesus died on the cross and whose blood washes away sin. Only then could they receive the Spirit and be in the presence of God. This is the reason OT believers were in Paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus led captivity captive as explained in Eph 4. This of course was after he rose from the dead.

The Calvinist who teaches that men cannot believe a simple report that God has provided a remedy for the sin problem of all men through Jesus Christ, who stood in his place in the carrying out of the death sentence of sin and the Calvinist who says that God's promise of eternal life is not to all sinners who will simply trust him for salvation is preaching a skewed form of the gospel, making it not the gospel at all.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry that is called reading your view into scripture

when ever you imagine you can insert something the text does not state
My view is scripture Eph 2 1 5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
 

TomFL

Well-known member
My view is scripture Eph 2 1 5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
Sorry that says nothing about a Lazarus like corpse. You are simply reading your views into scripture.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Prodigal son dead not Lazarus dead
The prodigal son was dead corpse spiritually, no different ! He was alive in the realm of the flesh, thats it. Lazarus was spiritually live[in another realm] when physically dead.

All the dead Saints Physically are still Spiritually alive with God in another realm, for God says of them Matt 22 32


I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

See Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were at that time physically dead corpses, but in another realm they are alive to God. So its the same thing with the prodigal, spiritually he was dead corpse, even though he was alive physically.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
jds error

Salvation is a NT doctrine. No one was saved in the OT because no one had the Spirit of God dwelling in his body except Adam and Jesus Christ. Men in the OT who believed what God said to them were "justified" their faith being imputed to them for righteousness but they could not be saved until Jesus died on the cross

And on top of that, you contradicted yourself from the start saying Adam had the Spirit since Adam is in the Old Testament. All the Saints in the OT who had Faith, had the Spirit dwelling in them, or they could not have Faith which is a fruit of the Spirit. Many of the Prophets had the Spirit in them, the Spirit of Christ 1 Pet 1:10-11

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Isaac was born after the Spirit Gal 4 29

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The prodigal son was dead corpse spiritually, no different ! He was alive in the realm of the flesh, thats it. Lazarus was spiritually live[in another realm] when physically dead.

No actually he was not

Scripture is not a wax figure you can twist however you like
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes explained, Im going to let you go in your delusion ! Dead folk cant act, they dead
How it it then your theology says they hate God

A dead corpse can't do that either

and it doesn't sin either

Your theology has a problem
 
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GeneZ

Well-known member
Its amazing how Calvinists freely choose to argue for their point, as if "reason" will cause others to believe as they do. And, how God sovereignly made others to disagree.

To me... that's the fundamental problem with the adherents to Calvinism. For, if we can not be made (by grace) to choose for God? And, the Word is God? Why debate?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Yes explained, Im going to let you go in your delusion ! Dead folk cant act, they dead
Dead in their sins and trespasses. (Eph 2:1)

Spiritually dead. For the flesh dominated over ones soul. Making that soul unable to choose for God.

Now... the sin nature resides in the "flesh." The soul is dominated by the flesh and is as if one is in a constant drunkenness that one is born into, and knows no better. The Law shouted at the soul to tell that drunk to pull over and stop driving. But, it did not stop the drunk state from being.

Now, we can see grace working in the believer as the Holy Spirit takes dominance and control over the flesh, so that ones soul can choose to live for Christ!

Its the flesh the ruins the soul's ability to live the things of God. Not the other way around.

Now? If the Holy Spirit can (and, He can) control the flesh of an unbeliever just long enough, so that the soul will be made free of the sin nature? At that moment of his soul being freed up by grace, that person can decide if he believes Jesus died for his sins. Without grace? It could never happen. No man could believe.

Without God's grace? No one could believe because the sin nature would never be abated. That is why its "by grace" we have been saved. "Through faith" - which faith comes by that freed soul hearing the Word of God. (Rom 10:17)

Some Calvinists think in a manner as to assume the sin nature resides in both the material flesh and the immaterial soul. If that were the case? No one's soul could be saved even by grace. Only the soul is what God saves, and tosses our flesh into the garbage can by means of the Cross.

Our sin nature resides in the flesh.

The flesh (our body) when we get drunk overwhelms the soul as to do what it would not want to do when sober. Likewise, God's power of the Holy Spirit? Can easily suppress our sin nature's negative inebriating influence over our soul. Thus, the Holy Spirit makes our soul freed up from the flesh to think without the 'slave master' sin nature cutting us off from God's Word.

Arminianism does not teach what I just posted.

grace and peace.......
 

JDS

Well-known member
jds error
And on top of that, you contradicted yourself from the start saying Adam had the Spirit since Adam is in the Old Testament.
Adam is the federal head of the race. He was not born. When he was created by God he was not created in the image of man as we know him today because there was no such man as that but he was created in the image and likeness of God. What is that image? To know that, one can examine the only other man in the OT who the scriptures says was in the image of God and that man is Jesus Christ. See it here;

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There is no doubt that our Lord Jesus Christ is fully a man because we are told this:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

If Jesus Christ is fully man as we are told above, what made him different than all other men? It is because he was also the son of God and was only the second man who was ever called the son of God before the cross. Who was the first man who was called the son of God? The answer is Adam. Here are passages where both men are called the son of God;

Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
2 Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

These two men only were sons of God in the OT, The OT which includes the 4 gospel accounts. It was said of these two men only in the first 4000 years of human history that they were in the image of God. They were sons of God in the image of God. The one, Adam, opened up human history in the OT and dominated it the entire 4000 years of the era. The other, Jesus Christ, brought it to an end and began a new era over which he dominated. Each of these men suffered both spiritual and physical death because of sin. Sin entered into the world through the first man, Adam, and the last Adam took it away. The human family was plunged into death and separation from God by the sin of the first Adam and was reconciled and given life by the obedience and righteousness of the last Adam. See these statements from the scriptures that addresses this;

First, Adam
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Second, Jesus
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Spiritual death that these men suffered separated them from God. Physical death separated them from men. Spiritual death took away the image of God and physical death took away the image of man. See these scriptures;

Gen 3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam never appeared again in the presence of God as long as he lived, which was 930 years.

Matt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (spiritual death)
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. ( his soul - physical death)

The image of God was lost by the sin of the first Adam and precipitated his death, first spiritual and then later, physical death. In both cases a separation took place. In the first, the Spirit of God indwelling his body separated from him leaving him as a mortal body and a soul, and in the second his soul separated from his body with the physical and earthly part of him returning to the elements and his soul returning to God. The life that was in Adam at this time was in his blood, not in the indwelling Spirit.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

Now, after he sinned, Adam has life but not eternal life and his image consists of body and soul. To see this more clearly from the scriptures one must look at his creation and how he became a three part man under the hand of God. Consider his creation account here;

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (1. Body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (the Spirit of God); and man became a living soul. (3. spirit of man, his soul).

This is the beginning of the OT era where the Spiritless Adam and his family dominates because he sinned and died spiritually making him a two part man, body and soul. This is now the image of Adam and this is what Adam is like.

Now, notice the end of this OT era and in the very beginning of the NT era and what happens between God and man after Jesus Christ, called the last Adam and the :second man" dominates the scene.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The breath of God is the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ gave eternal life to these foundational teachers of Christianity first before anyone else in the second testament by breathing him, the Spirit, into their bodies just as the Spirit was breathed into the body of Adam in Ge 2. We learn later that these men, and all men who are renewed by the Spirit are sealed unto the day of redemption of their bodies and cannot be condemned. Adam was not sealed.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:22
2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

All of Adam's family without exception were born physically into his family and were in his fallen image and are like him, bi-partite persons.
All those who are born again of the Spirit are in the family of God, and are like Christ, who is like God, a trinity.

I want you to consider this important verse and please check context.

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Now watch this and compare this following verse which is in the same context with 2 Cor 4:4 because the chapter begins with the word "therefore."

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


See next comment for completion of this page.






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JDS

Well-known member
Continuing.

How do we attain the image of Christ? Thank you for answering this question correctly and scripturally. It is by receiving the life of Christ, the Holy Ghost, into our mortal bodies. This makes us partakers of the divine nature and a son of God. This makes us a new creation and puts us into a new family, the family of God.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

So, the plan of God is to reverse the fall of Adam and restore the image of God through Christ,

Adam - glorified body at creation
Adam - Living soul
Adam - Life -The indwelling Spirit of God

Sin entered

Adam - Death - No indwelling Spirit of God
Adam - Soul - subject to death
Adam -Mortal body, subject to death

Jesus Christ - Mortal body
Jesus Christ - Living Soul
Jesus Christ - Life (john 1:4) the indwelling Spirit of God

Sin of Adams family placed upon him at the cross

Jesus Christ - Death - No indwelling Spirit on the cross
Jesus Christ - Soul-Death
Jesus Christ - Mortal body - death

Resurrection from the dead on the third day

Jesus Christ - Glorified Body (quickened 1 Pet 3:18, made alive by the presnce of the Holy Spirit and his soul in his body)
Jesus Christ - Living Soul
Jesus Christ - The indwelling quickening Spirit

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Now, the person who teaches that the Spirit of God dwelt in any person of the OT is not using any logic or reasoning whatsoever. I hesitate to use the word "dumb" here but this is a good place for someone like that. Consider this conversation on Crucifixion eve that our Lord Jesus Christ had with his disciples who had been with him for over three years.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Logic and reason please. What kind of logic and reason would it take to believe Jesus if this were already true of these men? If you cannot answer that question then please tell me and I will quit wasting my time with you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

The Holy Spirit filled the scene during the 4000 years of the OT and had many ministries to men but permanently indwelling men and giving them life was not one of them. Some of them whom he ministered in died and went to hell, like King Saul.

Religion blinds the minds of men so they cannot see simple truths.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The Spirit of Christ quickens the body by being in it. The sins are washed away.
 
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