Noahidism

Rachel Redux

Active member
I was trying to research Noachide Law and whether it was really what the early God fearers mentioned in the Bible practiced. However, I was surprised to learn that there are modern Noachide communities, evidently founded by Orthodox Rabbis in Israel.

[The modern Noahide movement was founded in the 1990s by Orthodox rabbis from Israel,[1][2][11] mainly tied to Chabad-Lubavitch and religious Zionist organizations,[1][2][11] including The Temple Institute.[1][2][11]]


Evidently it's very oppressive and based in Jewish imperialism.
In some Noachide communities, Noachides are literally not allowed to observe the Sabbath and other restrictions.


I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Either be a Sabbatarian Christian or convert to Judaism.
 

Open Heart

Active member
I was trying to research Noachide Law and whether it was really what the early God fearers mentioned in the Bible practiced. However, I was surprised to learn that there are modern Noachide communities, evidently founded by Orthodox Rabbis in Israel.

[The modern Noahide movement was founded in the 1990s by Orthodox rabbis from Israel,[1][2][11] mainly tied to Chabad-Lubavitch and religious Zionist organizations,[1][2][11] including The Temple Institute.[1][2][11]]


Evidently it's very oppressive and based in Jewish imperialism.
In some Noachide communities, Noachides are literally not allowed to observe the Sabbath and other restrictions.


I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Either be a Sabbatarian Christian or convert to Judaism.
I have a good friend in Louisiana who is Noahide. He simply doesn't believe what the Christian church teaches -- he believes what Judaism teaches. But he doesn't want to take on the burden of 613 laws. He is quite happy being a Gentile.

As for Sabbath Observance, this law was given to Israel, not the nations. One of its objectives is to remember the Exodus.
Deuteronomy 5:12-15
12 Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Gentiles were not slaves in Egypt. They were not delivered by God with a mighty hand. Thus, there is no reason for them to be observing a day meant to remember those things.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
I have a good friend in Louisiana who is Noahide. He simply doesn't believe what the Christian church teaches -- he believes what Judaism teaches. But he doesn't want to take on the burden of 613 laws. He is quite happy being a Gentile.

As for Sabbath Observance, this law was given to Israel, not the nations. One of its objectives is to remember the Exodus.
Deuteronomy 5:12-15
12 Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Gentiles were not slaves in Egypt. They were not delivered by God with a mighty hand. Thus, there is no reason for them to be observing a day meant to remember those things.
Yeshua taught his followers to keep the commandments. Not only was He a faithful Sabbath-keeper Himself (Luke 4:16), but He also declared that the Sabbath was created for man and that He was, in fact, the Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2:27-28

The mixed multitude that left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea was Israel.
All who worship God must obey his commandments.
 

Harel13

Member
Evidently it's very oppressive and based in Jewish imperialism.
In some Noachide communities, Noachides are literally not allowed to observe the Sabbath and other restrictions.
"Oppresive".
Oh please. No one's forcing them to be Noachides. They reached the decision of their own free will. Stop painting the picture as though Noachides are enslaved to Jews. The Noachides know that the Shabbat was given to the People of Israel. They therefore have three options: Not keep Shabbat, keep Shabbat but commit one action or more that breaks the Shabbat according to Jewish law, or convert to Judaism.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
"Oppresive".
Oh please. No one's forcing them to be Noachides. They reached the decision of their own free will. Stop painting the picture as though Noachides are enslaved to Jews. The Noachides know that the Shabbat was given to the People of Israel. They therefore have three options: Not keep Shabbat, keep Shabbat but commit one action or more that breaks the Shabbat according to Jewish law, or convert to Judaism.
God gave the Sabbath to mankind...period.
 

Open Heart

Active member
The mixed multitude that left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea was Israel.
All who worship God must obey his commandments.
the mixed multitude were converts, meaning they became part of the people of Israel. You are not. Chrisitans are not. Messianic gentiles are not. Only those who become part of Israel and take up the 613 commandment covenant are required to observe the Shabbat.

BTW, a Noahide can keep the Sabbath if he chooses, he simply has to commit one infraction against it to show that he is not attempting to impersonate a Jew. So, i.e. he can carry his keys outside of his home. Most Sabbatarian Christians commit many infractions of Jewish law in regards to the Sabbath, and no one would ever confuse them with a Jew.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
the mixed multitude were converts, meaning they became part of

the mixed multitude were converts, meaning they became part of the people of Israel.
Prove that.
You are not. Chrisitans are not. Messianic gentiles are not. Only those who become part of Israel and take up the 613 commandment covenant are required to observe the Shabbat.
Those who believe God are required to observe the Sabbath, just as we're required to obey all 10 of the commandments written in stone.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Still waiting for OH to prove her statement that "the mixed multitude were converts, meaning they became part of the people of Israel."
 

Open Heart

Active member
Still waiting for OH to prove her statement that "the mixed multitude were converts, meaning they became part of the people of Israel."
Read the whole Torah, Rachel. They took on the 613 commandments of the Torah. They stood at mount sinai and received it. That's called becoming an Israelite/Jew. And you and I have been over this ground far too many times for me to waste a lot of effort on it. After all, if you didn't listen to me the first or second or third time I gave it to you, why should I expect you to receive it now?
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Read the whole Torah, Rachel. They took on the 613 commandments of the Torah. They stood at mount sinai and received it. That's called becoming an Israelite/Jew. And you and I have been over this ground far too many times for me to waste a lot of effort on it. After all, if you didn't listen to me the first or second or third time I gave it to you, why should I expect you to receive it now?
You've never gone over this with me at all, but I will tell you now that neither the Hebrews nor the Gentiles received 613 commandments at Mt Sinai. :rolleyes:
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Read the whole Torah, Rachel. They took on the 613 commandments of the Torah. They stood at mount sinai and received it. That's called becoming an Israelite/Jew. And you and I have been over this ground far too many times for me to waste a lot of effort on it. After all, if you didn't listen to me the first or second or third time I gave it to you, why should I expect you to receive it now?
Since Open Heart obviously has no valid rebuttal, I'll add this for the benefit of any lurker.

YHVH gave the 10 commandments at Mt Sinai, not once but twice. He may have given some "oral law" at that time but if so, we obviously don't know what it was. Moses's father-in-law Jethro stepped in and advised Moses on setting up a sort of chain of command for appointing leaders, which actually might have been based on something like Noahidism. But what Open Heart is not mentioning is that what she is calling Torah above is the Talmud, which is really not God's Torah.
 

Open Heart

Active member
Since Open Heart obviously has no valid rebuttal, I'll add this for the benefit of any lurker.

YHVH gave the 10 commandments at Mt Sinai, not once but twice. He may have given some "oral law" at that time but if so, we obviously don't know what it was. Moses's father-in-law Jethro stepped in and advised Moses on setting up a sort of chain of command for appointing leaders, which actually might have been based on something like Noahidism. But what Open Heart is not mentioning is that what she is calling Torah above is the Talmud, which is really not God's Torah.
You think only 10 commandments were given? What about the commandments regarding sexuality, family purity, sacrifices, etc.? The Torah is filled with 613 commandments, not just 10.
 

Harel13

Member
God gave the Sabbath to mankind...period.
I think I missed that part in the Torah. I saw that Hashem created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. I saw a big skip all the way to Sinai and then the Israelites were commanded to keep the Shabbat. I noticed, though, that the Noach and is descendants weren't commanded to keep the Shabbat. Kindly enlighten me on the matter.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
I think I missed that part in the Torah. I saw that Hashem created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. I saw a big skip all the way to Sinai and then the Israelites were commanded to keep the Shabbat. I noticed, though, that the Noach and is descendants weren't commanded to keep the Shabbat. Kindly enlighten me on the matter.
Okay, I'll enlighten you. Here's one reference:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the strangers that cleave unto the Lord, to serve him, and to love the Name of the Lord, and to be his servants; everyone that keepeth the Sabbath, and polluteth it not, and embraceth my covenant,

Also, Yeshua said that the Sabbath was made for man...not just for Jews.
 

Harel13

Member
Also, Yeshua said that the Sabbath was made for man...not just for Jews.
Very Samaritanish of him...ah well, irrelevant either way, considering that Noachides follow Judaism, not Christianity, so giant-who-cares about what Jesus may or may not have said.
Okay, I'll enlighten you. Here's one reference:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the strangers that cleave unto the Lord, to serve him, and to love the Name of the Lord, and to be his servants; everyone that keepeth the Sabbath, and polluteth it not, and embraceth my covenant,
So according to you, what's this covenant that these keepers of the Sabbath embrace?
 

Open Heart

Active member
Okay, I'll enlighten you. Here's one reference:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the strangers that cleave unto the Lord, to serve him, and to love the Name of the Lord, and to be his servants; everyone that keepeth the Sabbath, and polluteth it not, and embraceth my covenant,

Also, Yeshua said that the Sabbath was made for man...not just for Jews.
The foreigners that what? Cleave unto the Lord. These are converts, Rachel. They have accepted the 613 commandments of the covenant.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
The foreigners that what? Cleave unto the Lord. These are converts, Rachel. They have accepted the 613 commandments of the covenant.
No, OH.....it isn't referring to converts. Why don't you study?
Here...read the verse in context. The very subject is God accepting "strangers, others, foreigners, outcasts."

Isaiah 56
1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;

and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”
8 The Lord God,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,
I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered.”


Open Heart, Jehovah explains his everlasting covenant in Isaiah 55.

Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live;
and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,
my steadfast, sure love for David.
4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander for the peoples.
5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know,
and a nation that did not know you shall run to you,
because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel,
 

Open Heart

Active member
No, OH.....it isn't referring to converts. Why don't you study?
Here...read the verse in context. The very subject is God accepting "strangers, others, foreigners, outcasts."

Isaiah 56
1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;

and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”
8 The Lord God,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,
I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered.”


Open Heart, Jehovah explains his everlasting covenant in Isaiah 55.

Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live;
and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,
my steadfast, sure love for David.
4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander for the peoples.
5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know,
and a nation that did not know you shall run to you,
because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel,
I have read it, the whole thing, many times, Rachel. The foreigners it talks about are converts. The eunuchs' are Jews.

Where in your second passage does it mention anything about keeping the sabbath?
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
I have read it, the whole thing, many times, Rachel. The foreigners it talks about are converts. The eunuchs' are Jews.

Where in your second passage does it mention anything about keeping the sabbath?
OH, I didn't say that the second passage mentioned keeping the sabbath, I said it explains the everlasting covenant.
Gentiles are blessed by the Abrahamic covenant and we know that Abraham was aware of and kept God's laws, even pre-Mosaic Law.

Abraham “obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws” Genesis 26:5
 
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