Non-Calvinists Believe Jesus Only Save Those Who Save Themselves First?

Sketo

Active member
Do you believe that “Saving Faith” is the one part of salvation that is produced by man alone and that it is not a gift of God?

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!

If this is true then Jesus only saves those who save themselves first! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!

If you say that “Saving Faith” is not a gift of God then you necessarily turn faith into a work that merits salvation!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you believe that “Saving Faith” is the one part of salvation that is produced by man alone and that it is not a gift of God?

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!

If this is true then Jesus only saves those who save themselves first! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!

If you say that “Saving Faith” is not a gift of God then you necessarily turn faith into a work that merits salvation!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
As Faith has no redemptive power in itself your claim is without merit

As for

Eph. 2:8 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

The gift of God is salvation by faith

8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
...
This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!
What did the Prodigal Son and the Publican accomplish which Jesus did not?


If you say that “Saving Faith” is not a gift of God then you necessarily turn faith into a work that merits salvation!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
Who says he does not?
 

civic

Active member
Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
That is not true as I personally know several Arminian Pastors who believe and teach just like Calvinists do that man is completely deprived and unable to come to God apart from His regeneration. And that they are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. I'm a Calvinist as far as tulip is concerned but I do not like when the other side is misrepresented.

Here is Arminius on the topic of free will and total depravity :

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
hope this helps !!!
 

Sketo

Active member
As Faith has no redemptive power in itself your claim is without merit
This statement is true if “saving faith” is a gift! But in your system it is not.

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Is the “enduring” here a gift of God or what man must accomplish, on his own, to merit the “will be saved” part?


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

If “believing” is not a gift of God here then what does man accomplish when he produces it on his own?

In your system believing the gospel initiates the power of God which merits salvation... that is if “belief” itself is not a gift!

Would the “power” ever be initiated without your, self wrought, part of your part is not a gift?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
This statement is true if “saving faith” is a gift! But in your system it is not.

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Is the “enduring” here a gift of God or what man must accomplish, on his own, to merit the “will be saved” part?


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

If “believing” is not a gift of God here then what does man accomplish when he produces it on his own?

In your system believing the gospel initiates the power of God which merits salvation... that is if “belief” itself is not a gift!

Would the “power” ever be initiated without your, self wrought, part of your part is not a gift?
Wrong

No matter the source of faith it no no power within itself to pardon men's sins or cause him to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit

And it is not my system but the bibles

John 3:14–18 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.¶ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Your idea that whoever God casually determines to believe has eternal life is never found anywhere in the passages of scripture
 

Sketo

Active member
No matter the source of faith it no no power within itself to pardon men's sins or cause him to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit
This is only true if “saving faith” is a gift! When you turn it into a requirement demanded of man alone in order to “cause” him to be “indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit” then you necessarily turn it into the “power”!
And it is not my system but the bibles
But it is your system that assumes every time faith, or belief, is used in the Bible it is, not a gift of God but, the “power” of man alone that brings about the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit”!
If it’s not a gift it changes everything!
Your idea that whoever God casually determines to believe has eternal life is never found anywhere in the passages of scripture
This is typical when your system demands that you see the “power of man” instead of “the gift of God” when you read the Bible!
It’s found everywhere when you finally realize that “saving faith” is a gift of God!
None of the verses you site prove that faith/belief is not the gift of God... you just simply assume they are not and that is why you can not find it “anywhere in the passages of scripture”!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9
“it is the gift of God” includes “saving faith”!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
This is only true if “saving faith” is a gift! When you turn it into a requirement demanded of man alone in order to “cause” him to be “indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit” then you necessarily turn it into the “power”!

Sorry no
No matter the source of faith it has no power within itself to pardon men's sins or cause him to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenerative influences of the Holy Spirit

Calvin notes

On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

But it is your system that assumes every time faith, or belief, is used in the Bible it is, not a gift of God but, the “power” of man alone that brings about the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the regenative influences of the Holy Spirit”!
If it’s not a gift it changes everything!

Actually your claim is false. Perhaps you should refrain from making statements about my system. I believe grace is needed

The simply fact however the bible does not present God as believing for man or irresistibly unilaterally infusing faith. Providing grace yes infusing faith no



This is typical when your system demands that you see the “power of man” instead of “the gift of God” when you read the Bible!
It’s found everywhere when you finally realize that “saving faith” is a gift of God!
None of the verses you site prove that faith/belief is not the gift of God... you just simply assume they are not and that is why you can not find it “anywhere in the passages of scripture”!

LOL you have simply assumed God unilaterally infuses faith and reverse the order of faith and regeneration

and that can be demonstrated biblically as regeneration is new life

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”




For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9
“it is the gift of God” includes “saving faith”!

Greek scholar At Robertson notes

8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.

See also Calvin above

If you want to prove your point show that faith cannot be found being regeneration in the bible

You cannot do it

Even the verse you quote puts faith before salvation. (Regeneration transpires at the onset of salvation)

So you have no argument
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sketo

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

Now that makes sense !
 

TomFL

Well-known member

sketo

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!
Now that makes sense !

Actually that is absurd

For without Jesus sacrifice no one would wind up in heaven
 

zerinus

Active member
Do you believe that “Saving Faith” is the one part of salvation that is produced by man alone and that it is not a gift of God?

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!

If this is true then Jesus only saves those who save themselves first! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!

If you say that “Saving Faith” is not a gift of God then you necessarily turn faith into a work that merits salvation!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
Jesus' own words couldn't be clearer:

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


That puts the burden of, and responsibility for "believing" on the "believer," not on God, or on anybody else. Calvinism is a heresy which distorts teaching of the living God.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Jesus' own words couldn't be clearer:

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


That puts the burden of, and responsibility for "believing" on the "believer," not on God, or on anybody else. Calvinism is a heresy which distorts teaching of the living God.
Thats false. Believing on Christ is the Gift of God Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

As Faith has no redemptive power in itself your claim is without merit

As for

Eph. 2:8 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

The gift of God is salvation by faith

Yes, God must give Salvation, and Faith accompanies it, Faith is part of the Gift of Salvation !
 

zerinus

Active member
Thats false. Believing on Christ is the Gift of God Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
Wrong exegesis:

Philippians 1:

27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


"Given in the behalf of" in verse 29 means having the privilege, honor, and blessing of believing in and suffering for Christ, which their persecutors consider to be a cursing rather than a blessing. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Calvinism poisons the mind so that the obvious truths of the gospel become unintelligible.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Wrong exegesis:

Philippians 1:

27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


"Given in the behalf of" in verse 29 means having the privilege, honor, and blessing of believing in and suffering for Christ, which their persecutors consider to be a cursing rather than a blessing. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Calvinism poisons the mind so that the obvious truths of the gospel become unintelligible.
No it is truth from scripture
 

e v e

Active member
Do you believe that “Saving Faith” is the one part of salvation that is produced by man alone and that it is not a gift of God?

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!

This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!

If this is true then Jesus only saves those who save themselves first! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!

If you say that “Saving Faith” is not a gift of God then you necessarily turn faith into a work that merits salvation!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Calvinists are the only ones who can consistently say that Jesus Christ alone saves from beginning to end!
none of this makes logical sense.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No, it is heresy from Calvinism.
Its not wise to call truth of God a mans name, you will answer to God for that, remember Matt 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
 
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