None, Some or All ?

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guest1

Guest
If God wanted He could save everyone correct ???? Does He ? Here are the three options that you have when dealing with this issue. Which option below is true ? Once you select the correct answer then the next question you must ask yourself is why ? Why does God choose to save some ? Lets face it Romans 1 declares God is self evident to all so that all mankind is without excuse. Man loves their sin more than they do God. God just allows man to have what his own heart desires. God does not force anyone to come to Him against their own will. A loving God sends out the invitation to all but only some will come to Him. You need to look at things from Gods perspective and not fallen mans.

1- God saves Everyone- universalism.
2- God saves None- No one, nobody
3- God saves Some. Few, the elect.


Let’s start with 1 Timothy 4:10, which captures the both-and. It goes like this, “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” Notice the phrase “the Savior of all, especially of those who believe.”

“For the elect, the blood of Jesus is the blood of the new covenant, which purchases for them a new heart.”​

Paul says in Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.” And Paul would add, “especially those who believe”: “He brought salvation for all, especially for those who believe.”

We can see the both-and in the gospel of John. Start with John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” Christ came as an expression of God’s love for the world. Then John says, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). The offering of his Son is the offering of salvation to the world.

Now, we’ll come back to this in just a moment to answer the question “For what tangible reason did Christ die for the non-elect?”

First, we need to see the other side of the coin in the Gospel of John, besides saving the whole world.

“I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.” (John 10:14–17)

“I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep” — the ones who know me, the ones that the Father’s given me. “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold” — those are the elect scattered throughout the world. “I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice” — that’s what marks them out as sheep (John 10:14–16).

In other words, Jesus says, “I go out. I preach. I call. The sheep, the ones whom the Father has, he gives to me. They recognize my voice. They come to me. There will be one flock and one shepherd” (see John 10:16). The Father has the sheep. He gives the sheep to Jesus. They are his own. They know his voice. He calls them. They come. He lays down his life for them — uniquely for them (John 10:17–18).

Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 5:25: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” The husband loves his wife uniquely and in a special way. That’s the way Christ loves the church and dies for the church — in a unique way.

Now, what’s the effect of this focused, particular redemption for the bride, the sheep, the elect? What does the death do that’s unique for the bride? I think Romans 8:32 gives the answer: “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all” — now pause.

The “us all” in the context of Romans 8:32 is clearly the elect. It’s not the whole world. It’s the elect. “He did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all.” You can see this in the next verse: “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn?” (Romans 8:33–34). That’s how verse 32 is being fulfilled, and you can see it in the rest of this verse. Let start again from the beginning and read the rest of the verse.

“He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” In other words, the death of Christ for his people secures and guarantees for them every saving blessing there is.

“Will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” Yes, he will because that is what the death of Christ guarantees for all the elect. If God gave his Son in this same way for every person on the planet, then that promise would attach to every person because it’s attached to the blood of Jesus, to the sacrifice of Jesus. That means every person would be saved, would be guaranteed every possible blessing, which Paul says clearly is not the case (in places like 2 Thessalonians 1:9).piper

hope this helps !!!
 
G

guest1

Guest
continued :

What can we say about how the death of Christ expresses itself for the elect and the non-elect who reject him? How is it different? For the elect, the blood of Jesus is the blood of the new covenant, which purchases for them a new heart, new life, faith, and obedience.

Jesus says that in Luke 22:20: “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” The blood of Jesus is purchasing the new covenant.

The new covenant is not an offer of salvation. It’s an accomplishment of salvation in the hearts of God’s people. He gives them a new heart and a new spirit, a gift of life, gift of faith, gift of obedience.

Now, back to John 3:16 for the other side of how the death of Christ relates to the world, or to the non-elect. I think the wording of John 3:16 provides the answer of how to speak of the gift of Christ, the death of Christ, for the non-elect, the whole world.

Here’s how he puts it: “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” He loved the world so that everyone who believes would have life.

The way to speak about the giving of the Son as an expression of love to the world is to highlight the word that: “That whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

That’s the connection we make between the death of Christ and every person on this planet. Christ accomplished a completely full and satisfactory and effective redemption for whosoever believes.

You may look (and should look) everyone in the eye — absolutely everyone in your neighborhood, at your church, at your work — and say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will never perish. Believe on him, and you will become a full and complete participant in the perfect salvation, the perfect payment for sins, the perfect propitiation of the wrath of God, the perfect obedience for imputation, the perfect deliverance from death and hell and Satan and into the everlasting glory of God. All of that is yours — it’s yours for the believing because of Jesus’s death.”

We could never talk like that to people — we don’t know who the non-elect are so let’s just assume there’s lots of them that are listening — if Jesus hadn’t died the way he did. That is a great and awesome gift that we are indebted to give to the entire world. Oh, that God would put fire in our hearts to take that message to the ends of the earth. piper

hope this helps !!!
 
G

guest1

Guest
John Murray in his book Redemption Accomplished and Applied writes:

If we concentrate on the thought of redemption, we shall be able perhaps to sense more readily the impossibility of universalizing the atonement. What does redemption mean? It does not mean redeemability, that we are placed in a redeemable position. It means that Christ purchased and procured redemption. This is the triumphant note of the New Testament whenever it plays on the redemptive chord. Christ redeemed us to God by his blood (Rev. 5:9). He obtained eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12). “He gave himself for us in order that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify to himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works” (Tit. 2:14). It is to beggar the concept of redemption as an effective securement of release by price and by power to construe it as anything less than the effectual accomplishment which secures the salvation of those who are its objects. Christ did not come to put men in a redeemable position but to redeem to himself a people.”

The real question comes down to this: did he or didn’t he?

Did Jesus Christ satisfy divine wrath upon that cross or didn’t he? If he didn’t, then who will? And when? But if he did, then for whom?

It would be unbiblical to conclude that Jesus satisfied the wrath of God and bore the sins for those already suffering in hell. If he did pay their penalty, why is God punishing them a second time?
 
G

guest1

Guest
John Owen’s concise puzzle.

The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for:

1. All the sins of all men.

2. All the sins of some men.

3. Some of the sins of some men.

In which case, it may be said:

a
. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none is saved.

b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or he did not. If he did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died? If he did not, he did not die for all their sins!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
1- God saves Everyone- universalism.
2- God saves None- No one, nobody
3- God saves Some. Few, the elect.
You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or he did not. If he did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died? If he did not, he did not die for all their sins!

3) God Saves Some. few, the Elect...

Andrew Fuller looked at Faith as the 'Duty' of All people; this kinda makes Faith in God a Commandment. Thou shalt not have any gods 'before' me, means thou Shalt have Jesus as your God. We must believe that he 'is'. God is our Savior; so it is our Duty to Worship Jesus as LORD. When you believe Jesus is your Savior but he's not your God, this makes Jesus 'g'od our Savior. Then you 'DO' have a god before the God of the Bible, and break the First Commandment...

That kind of changed mid-writing; I don't know where that came from...

Yes I do; someone needed to hear it...
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
civic

Now, back to John 3:16 for the other side of how the death of Christ relates to the world, or to the non-elect. I think the wording of John 3:16 provides the answer of how to speak of the gift of Christ, the death of Christ, for the non-elect, the whole world.

Here’s how he puts it: “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” He loved the world so that everyone who believes would have life.

The way to speak about the giving of the Son as an expression of love to the world is to highlight the word that: “That whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

That’s the connection we make between the death of Christ and every person on this planet. Christ accomplished a completely full and satisfactory and effective redemption for whosoever believes.

I would disagree , I dont world in Jn 3:16 has anything to do with the non elect. Gods Love is particular/discriminate Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

And its grounded in being in Christ Rom 8:39


39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What is often overlooked by most regarding Jn 3:16 is the small word so, Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word so is the adverb hoytō(s) and means:

in this manner, thus, so


The emphasis is in what manner did God love the world, it was for the purpose of everyone believing, that they are having everlasting life.

The Created world order shall for the elects sake, partake of redemptive renewal Rom 8:21; 2 Pet 3:12

The way you are saying it , its like Christs Love and Death is for everyone, conditioned on if they believe it.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
1- God saves Everyone- universalism.
2- God saves None- No one, nobody
3- God saves Some. Few, the elect.
...
In a theological scenario which claims God meticulously decrees all things, whatsoever comes to pass; then the above would easily apply.

In God's inspired word; God died for all and saves those who believe.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
In a theological scenario which claims God meticulously decrees all things, whatsoever comes to pass; then the above would easily apply.

In God's inspired word; God died for all and saves those who believe.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The problem will always be that some people don't like Compatibalism...
 
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TomFL

Guest
John Owen’s concise puzzle.

The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for:

1. All the sins of all men.

2. All the sins of some men.

3. Some of the sins of some men.

In which case, it may be said:

a
. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none is saved.

b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or he did not. If he did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died? If he did not, he did not die for all their sins!
The problem with Owens dilemma is it is based on an assumption of an atonement which appliers its own benefits

But the atonement is provisional

and benefits those with faith

without faith the atonement and the gospel

is without benefit in a strict soteriological sense

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved

that is provisional atonement
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The problem with Owens dilemma is it is based on an assumption of an atonement which appliers its own benefits

But the atonement is provisional

and benefits those with faith

without faith the atonement and the gospel

is without benefit in a strict soteriological sense

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved

that is provisional atonement
Christs death does apply its own benefits, thats why people Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Christs death does apply its own benefits, thats why people Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Not according to scripture


Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved

and the we in your passage is believers
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not according to scripture


Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved

and the we in your passage is believers
What you call Rom 5:10 the morning newspaper.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
What you call Rom 5:10 the morning newspaper.
a verse which applies to those who believed

Anyone who has believed can say they were reconciled by Christ's sacrifice

care to actually address what was stated

Not according to scripture


Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
a verse which applies to those who believed

Anyone who has believed can say they were reconciled by Christ's sacrifice

care to actually address what was stated

Not according to scripture


Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear God gave his son for the world

out of the world some would believe and be saved

others in the world would not believe and not be saved
When were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10 ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
When were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10 ?
when they believed

Romans 5:1-2 (ESV)
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
when they believed

Romans 5:1-2 (ESV)
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
You not true to what scripture says there, thats deceit friend.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You not true to what scripture says there, thats deceit friend.
You just don't believe scripture

One cannot be reconciled and and separate from Christ and without God at the same time

Ephesians 2:12 (ESV)
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

what Romans 5:10 is speaking of the act of reconciliation not when it was applied
 
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