Not born Hardened or Blind

brightfame52

Well-known member
No I don't think you do

They shows the gospel (and naturally faith in it) must precede regeneration

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

would you imagine disobedience to the gospel results in regeneration

and 2Co 4:3 still says nothing at all about regeneration preceding faith

and you cannot assume all are blinded by Satan
I know you don't believe those verses or understand them. Neither do believe the plain teaching that the Gospel is hidden to the lost 2 Cor 4 3
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I know you don't believe those verses or understand them. Neither do believe the plain teaching that the Gospel is hidden to the lost 2 Cor 4 3
You know nothing

and as stated

The verses show the gospel (and naturally faith in it) must precede regeneration

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

would you imagine disobedience to the gospel results in regeneration

and 2Co 4:3 still says nothing at all about regeneration preceding faith

and you cannot assume all are blinded by Satan
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You know nothing

and as stated

The verses show the gospel (and naturally faith in it) must precede regeneration

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

would you imagine disobedience to the gospel results in regeneration

and 2Co 4:3 still says nothing at all about regeneration preceding faith

and you cannot assume all are blinded by Satan
So explain how someone can believe something that is hidden from them.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So explain how someone can believe something that is hidden from them.
Not everyone has been blinded by Satan or rather allowed Sastan to blind them

The gospel is not hidden

Col. 1:23 —KJV
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Rom. 1:19–20 —KJV
Ҧ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not everyone has been blinded by Satan or rather allowed Sastan to blind them

The gospel is not hidden

Col. 1:23 —KJV
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Rom. 1:19–20 —KJV
Ҧ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
By nature everyone is lost and blinded by satan the god of this world !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
By nature everyone is lost and blinded by satan the god of this world !
Not according to scripture

Not everyone has been blinded by Satan or rather allowed Satan to blind them

The gospel is not hidden

Col. 1:23 —KJV
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Rom. 1:19–20 —KJV
Ҧ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not according to scripture

Not everyone has been blinded by Satan or rather allowed Satan to blind them

The gospel is not hidden

Col. 1:23 —KJV
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Rom. 1:19–20 —KJV
Ҧ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
Yes according to scripture. Men are born spiritually dead and lost
 

JDS

Active member
A man is born innocent, knowing nothing. In time he begins to learn the difference between right and wrong and becomes conscious of himself. He learns that there is an authority over him that is greater than himself and that authority is codified in his family, his parents. He becomes aware that he is under societal laws and must submit to them and because he is unable and unwilling to submit to the laws perfectly, he understands now that he is a law breaker and guilty. He hears that God, the highest authority, has made a way to justify all law breakers by graciously enduring the penalty for it himself in a one time and forever act of substitution and any who desires to be restored to that state of innocence can claim that provision for themselves and be declared righteous and not guilty. For those who refuse to submit God has reserved a time when he will remove them from the earth because he intends to establish in the end what he began in the beginning and that is a world of citizens who have chosen to submit to his authority and over whom he can rule in perfect peace.

Those rebels who refuse the God of heaven are put into a place of nothingness, the lake of fire, where they may exercise Godhood and they may begin with nothing and create their own universes with it's own laws if they are ever able to do it. They cannot operate with their own laws in God's creation. He is God and will not be challenged.

Psa 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Our Lord quoted this to the rebel rulers of Israel in John 8;

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Isaiah said to people he identified in V 11 as rebels;

Isa 41:21 Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Psa 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Psalm 34:16
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:22
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psalm 46:9
He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

Psalm 47:2
For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

Psalm 47:9
The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.

Psalm 59:13
Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.

Psalm 63:9
But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Psalm 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

Psalm 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Psalm 68:8
The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

Psalm 78:69
And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

Psalm 82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psalm 96:13
Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord.

Psalm 109:15
Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from thethat he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Psalm 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

How many times must God have to say something before it is believed to be true. The earth is a forever thing and men will be on it forever but God will eradicate the rebels off of it and he will rule over the earth in perfect peace and righteousness over subjects that have bowed their knee to him of their own wills.

I think maybe I am the only person posting on this board at this time who believes the above verses without skewing them. This is nowhere near an exhaustive list of statements where God assures us of this.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
A man is born innocent, knowing nothing.

I've never read any Bible verse that said, "a man is born innocent".

On the contrary, the Bible teaches this:

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.



How many times must God have to say something before it is believed to be true. The earth is a forever thing and men will be on it forever but God will eradicate the rebels off of it and he will rule over the earth in perfect peace and righteousness over subjects that have bowed their knee to him of their own wills.

You tell us.
You're the one who refuses to accept God's word.
 

JDS

Active member
I've never read any Bible verse that said, "a man is born innocent".

On the contrary, the Bible teaches this:

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Have you ever even read those words in Psa 51 with any kind of discernment? The answer is no if what you post here is any indication. Your purpose, IMO, is to prove Calvinism to be true no matter what and text says and no matter what is the context. You cannot be corrected.

This psalm is not about you and it is not written to describe me. The Psalm is a description of our Lord Jesus Christ and David, the Psalmist is often writing the words of another who shares a very parallel experience. Portions of this psalm can be applied to Jesus Christ, who was conceived "in" iniquity, and mothered by a sinner, since all are sinners. This does not make our Lord a sinner. He was birthed by a woman who must be saved. However, there are things in this Psalm that cannot apply to Jesus Christ or David but can apply to Israel, whose history mirrors that of David and Christ in most ways. Here it is;

Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

David did not have any broken bones and it is clearly stated about Jesus Christ that he had no broken bones but someone in this psalm had some broken bones. Who is it? Well, this is the song book of Israel and we have this in the prophets.

Jeremiah 50:17
Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his (Israel's) bones.

Compare Verse 13 above with the following future prophetic utterance from the scriptures;

Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I am charging you that you do not believe the words of the scriptures and ignore context. I have read much of what you have written and draw my conclusions from that.

You tell us.
You're the one who refuses to accept God's word.
I accept and believe Psa 51. It has lots to say. God is going to establish a righteous kingdom on this earth and he says it over and over. It will be eternal but you have not believed it the first time.

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
It says "from" the womb, it does not say immediately from the womb. This Psalm only proves other declarations of the scriptures that all men born of Adam are sinners because they sin. God does not contradict himself. Men are condemned when they sin, not before. The wages of sin is death. Sins are described with active verbs done with the body. Look it up.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Have you ever even read those words in Psa 51 with any kind of discernment?

Yes, that's why I know your interpretation is false.

And since you STILL haven't quoted any verses which teach, "man is born innocent", you continue to prove yourself wrong.

Have a nice day! :)


I am charging you that you do not believe the words of the scriptures and ignore context.

And by doing so, you are bearing false witness against me.
And you will have to answer to God for that, sir.
 

JDS

Active member
Yes, that's why I know your interpretation is false.

And since you STILL haven't quoted any verses which teach, "man is born innocent", you continue to prove yourself wrong.

The scriptures declares in Rom 5 and 2 Cor 5 that sin is not imputed when there is no law and we are told that sin is the transgression of the law. Someone who cannot grasp the law cannot transgress it. The law defines sin. One must have intelligence, reason, and will to transgress the law. He cannot be held accountable for sin without any one of these three things. We know this is true because civilized society in our 6 thousand years of human history has never prosecuted an animal for murder by his peers, though it has occurred many times. Why is that? Because they cannot reason between right and wrong.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The scriptures declares in Rom 5 and 2 Cor 5 that sin is not imputed when there is no law and we are told that sin is the transgression of the law. Someone who cannot grasp the law cannot transgress it.

Um, that's why God GAVE the law!
And you should go back from Rom. 5, and go back and reread (or read for the first time), Rom. 1-2, which teaches that God wrote the Law in our hearts, so that "we have no excuse".

So you can't show any verses that teach "men are born innocent".
You have to ASSUME it, and try to justify your assumption with poor rationalizations.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
jds

Someone who cannot grasp the law cannot transgress it.

False. Men were guilty of sins of ignorance. Even when they didnt know their masters will, they would be beaten with few stripes Lk 12 47 48

And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.


But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 

JDS

Active member
Um, that's why God GAVE the law!
And you should go back from Rom. 5, and go back and reread (or read for the first time), Rom. 1-2, which teaches that God wrote the Law in our hearts, so that "we have no excuse".
Why did you not quote that verse that says that? God wrote his law in our conscience. That proves my point, which is not my point but the point of Romans 1 and 2. We are not conscious of anything when we are born. We go forth "from" the womb speaking lies, not "in" the womb. We must be conscious of a lie before we can be charged with lying. We are dependent upon knowledge for that.


So you can't show any verses that teach "men are born innocent".
You have to ASSUME it, and try to justify your assumption with poor rationalizations.
I said you cannot be corrected. This is true.
 

JDS

Active member
jds



False. Men were guilty of sins of ignorance. Even when they didnt know their masters will, they would be beaten with few stripes Lk 12 48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The operative word here is "men." Nothing is required of the innocent.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The operative word here is "men." Nothing is required of the innocent.

<Chuckle>

So the set of "the innocent" does not include "men".
Thank you for refuting yourself! :)

Btw, both A's and C's believe in original sin, so your topic of discussion is not really appropriate here.
 

JDS

Active member
Babies die. Death is the wages of sin
Babies die because the life of the flesh is in the blood. For one to have eternal life, he must be born of the Spirit of God which no one has at their first birth, except our Lord Jesus Christ. Death of the innocents is not because they committed sins but because they are born in the image and likeness of Adam, who was dead spiritually because he sinned. No one is charged with their fathers sin. The scriptures plainly says that.

You are in the dark and cannot be corrected. Your doctrines are damnable..
 
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