No they are not unless they are numbered in the few people who do not have intelligence, reason, and will. The innocents do not have that. If they did they would not be innocent.<Chuckle>
So the set of "the innocent" does not include "men".
Thank you for refuting yourself!
Btw, both A's and C's believe in original sin, so your topic of discussion is not really appropriate here.
Not born Hardened or Blind
- Thread starter TomFL
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
For the record<Chuckle>
So the set of "the innocent" does not include "men".
Thank you for refuting yourself!
Btw, both A's and C's believe in original sin, so your topic of discussion is not really appropriate here.
Calvinists believe in native depravity and native demerit (inherited guilt)
Arminians believe in native depravity but not native demerit
Physical death is the wages of sin. Only two men who ever lived died spiritually and that was Adam and Jesus Christ. Why was that? It is because that until our Lord Jesus Christ died spiritually and then physically and rose again none but them ever possessed the Spirit of God in their bodies. Both these men were sons of God because the Spirit of God indwelled their bodies and sin was the cause of spiritual death for both of them. The definition of death is separation and the Spirit cannot dwell where sin is and the Spirit departed when sin entered. Later, physical death occurred for both of them when the soul and body were separated. The reason no one else has ever died spiritually is because no one else before the cross ever possessed the indwelling Spirit of God as a member of their person. This is what Jesus Christ at the cross secured for us. He shed his blood there and his sinless blood is the only agent that can wash away sin. See Re 1:5 here if you have a KJV Bible. It says Jesus washed us from our sins in his own blood. If and when sins are washed away the Spirit of Christ, who is eternal and who is life can once again indwell the body. This is the new birth and makes one a son of God.
The person who never receives the new birth will experience the reverse of what Adam experienced. The sinner will die in his sins and be resurrected bodily from the dead and stand before Jesus Christ in judgement at the great white throne where he will give account of his deeds and then be cast body and soul into the lake of fire, the only place in God’s creation where his omnipresent person is not at, to be separated from God and forgotten of God for all eternity. This is called the second death. Those who do not have a second birth will have a second death. You may read about this in Re 20:11-15 and Re 21:8.
Spiritual death is separation from God. The common lot of man is to be separated from God because of sin
Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved,
Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
brightfame52
Well-known member
This is true
Physical death while in a condition of spiritual death leads to the second death
I hate it when you quote something to challenge what I have said that messes with verbs and tenses. It is confusion. Having said that, the together word in verse 13 is gentiles, who he is addressing his comments to and telling them how and why God is now including them into his redemptive plan with the Jews, who were in Christ first. Itis a mystery of God that he is revealing here. Ephesians defines the history given in Acts beginning in chapter 10. The condition of gentiles being dead is not because they died at some point but because of their birth. They were under the law of sin and death. The answer for our predicament is the grace of God who has made eternal life available to us as the gift through Christ Jesus who paid the sin debt by dying for the whole world and is now alive. His eternal and life giving Spirit is poured out abundantly on the whole world like water from above and any and all may drink one time and live.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
According to God, Sin rules as king in this world over those who are born in Adams family. His rule is unto death. There is no power in Adams family against him. Jesus Christ defeated sin and death by becoming sin personified (2 Cor 5:21 & Jn 3:14) and paying it's just penalty, which is death, on behalf of all Adam's family, and then rising again from the dead never to die again, and then giving us his life as the gift. The gift of God is his Spirit who will dwell in our bodies forever. In him, we will never be charged by God of sin unto death seeing as how sin is taken away and God is satisfied and his justice served. Receiving the Spirit by faith in Christ is the new birth into the family of God. His presence in our bodies makes us a new creature, a new creation, according to God. We are in the image of Christ, a tri-partite person. Consider the following passage with limited commentary;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The verses 13 through 17 are parenthetical and explains what has happened so far, so for this quote I am leaving it out so it is easy to see this problem of sin and the remedy for it is between two men, Adam and Jesus Christ. Only two.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
This is an "as" and "so" verse, making one a type for the other.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This is an "as" and "so" verse, making one a type for the other.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is an "as" and "so" verse, making one a type for the other.
The free gift in verse 18 is the Spirit of Christ, who is a person and who is God, and who is life.
Now consider the parenthetical portion where we are told Adam is a figure for Christ, although, as we can see he is a contrasting type, but a figure nonetheless.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
The emphasis of these parenthetical verses is the free gift on God's principle of grace to dead men, those in Adam who are ruled by sin unto death, and it is mentioned five times in three verse. The number 5 is God's number he most often associates with the grace of God and his gift is given abundantly in more than the portion for the need.
There is only one gift of God in the scriptures. It is the Spirit of life through Jesus Christ. It is received by those who believe the promise of God that he has made to the world. Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.
No one should confuse this. It is far too important.
Last edited:
Will you please address the point. Either agree or disagree and say why
It concerns the nature of spiritual death and scripture was cited to illustrate its truth
Spiritual death is separation from God. The common lot of man is to be separated from God because of sin
Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved,
Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Now they were of course not physically dead
They were spiritually dead alienated from God
It is rather difficult to see what your run on comments have to do with this or how they defend your claim only two had experienced spiritual death
Last edited:
If you just want to argue find someone else to participate with you. I am not your man. My point was that all men are dead, if death is defined as separation from God, and it is. They are separated from God by virtue of their birth. If spiritual life is possessing the Spirit of God in one's body, and it is, then Adams children are born spiritually dead. They are born in the image of Adam and after his likeness, bipartite, soul and body. Their birth does not make them sinners and condemned by God because sin is a cognitive action that requires reason and forethought and a consciousness of right and wrong. They become conscious of that as they mature. I quoted a passage that says sin entered into the world through Adam and ruled over his realm as a king. Adam's race had no power to resist sin and they all sinned. This, according to God is a law. When a man sins he is condemned. This fact refutes the original sin doctrine of Calvinism that holds Adam's race as condemned by virtue of them being born, knowing nothing.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Jesus Christ, OTOH, Was not in the image of Adam but was the express image of God. In him was life, he says from his beginning on this earth as a man. God gave not the Spirit by measure unto him, Jn 3. His sinless life was lived under the power of the Spirit who indwelt him. Those who are "in Christ Jesus," that is in his body, can still sin, and do because of the weak bodies we live in, but because we are in Christ, sin cannot condemn us because Christ has paid it's penalty and God sees us as he sees Christ. When we receive our glorified bodies sin will not even be a temptation for us. "In Christ" is the operative principle for our freedom from the law of sin and death..
Now, for clarification to you, I am participating on this board because it is the Calvinist/Arminian board and I disagree with all Calvinist doctrines. My comments are generally geared to address some one or more of their errors. I do not know why you are here but I do not think you are a Calvinist but I do know you do not believe many of the words of the Bible and I do not know what system you are pumping. My efforts will be mostly with the Calvinists, not you.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
More precisely, people are born with Uncircumcised Hearts; this is the approach you should start pushing, because it is harder to refute. Being born spiritually dead, being born with a Heart of Stone, and being born with an Uncircumcised Heart; are the same thing. Ask everyone if all people are born needing their Hearts Circumcised, or are we born with Uncircumcised Hearts that eventually grow a spiritual foreskin which then and only then needs to be Circumcised...
Last edited:
brightfame52
Well-known member
rrv
Yes which I believe can be understood as one and the same. Stephen said to some jews Acts 7 51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
However this is not limited to just jews, but all men by nature
Yes which I believe can be understood as one and the same. Stephen said to some jews Acts 7 51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
However this is not limited to just jews, but all men by nature
Men growing hardened in Time
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Zech. 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
Zech. 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
Zech. 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Zech. 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
or being hardened in Time
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
brightfame52
Well-known member
Men are born with hardness of heart, and it gets hardened ! The only rememdy is to be in new birth given a new heart, spiritually circumcised heart. God must remove the stony heart we are born with in the flesh Ezk 36 26
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Again who blinds a corpse so it cannot see
Who stops up the ears of one who cannot hear
Why does one born hardened and unable to respond positively need further hardening
You view has no answer for that
or this
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
or the fact the bible shows men refuse to not that they can't believe
2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Is. 30:12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Because you despise this word
and trust in oppression and perverseness
and rely on them,
Is. 30:13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a breach in a high wall, bulging out and about to collapse,
whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
Is. 30:14 and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”
Is. 30:15 ¶ For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
“In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.”
But you were unwilling,
Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will wpluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer. 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, xturns from its evil, yI will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will wbuild and plant it,
Jer. 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
Jer. 18:12 ¶ “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Zech. 7:11 But they refused to pay attention hand turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear.
Heb. 12:25 ¶ See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man is born Spiritually dead by Gods decree.
You addressed nothing
Again who blinds a corpse so it cannot see
Who stops up the ears of one who cannot hear
Why does one born hardened and unable to respond positively need further hardening
You view has no answer for that
or this
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
or the fact the bible shows men refuse to not that they can't believe
2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Is. 30:12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Because you despise this word
and trust in oppression and perverseness
and rely on them,
Is. 30:13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a breach in a high wall, bulging out and about to collapse,
whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
Is. 30:14 and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”
Is. 30:15 ¶ For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
“In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.”
But you were unwilling,
Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will wpluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer. 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, xturns from its evil, yI will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will wbuild and plant it,
Jer. 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
Jer. 18:12 ¶ “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Zech. 7:11 But they refused to pay attention hand turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear.
Heb. 12:25 ¶ See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those verses say nothing about man not being spiritually dead. Man is naturally born spiritually dead, and stony heart towards God.
Wrong topic
Inability is the topic
.........................................
You addressed nothing
Again who blinds a corpse so it cannot see
Who stops up the ears of one who cannot hear
Why does one born hardened and unable to respond positively need further hardening
You view has no answer for that
or this
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
or the fact the bible shows men refuse to not that they can't believe
2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Is. 30:12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Because you despise this word
and trust in oppression and perverseness
and rely on them,
Is. 30:13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a breach in a high wall, bulging out and about to collapse,
whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
Is. 30:14 and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”
Is. 30:15 ¶ For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
“In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.”
But you were unwilling,
Jer. 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will wpluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer. 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, xturns from its evil, yI will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will wbuild and plant it,
Jer. 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer. 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
Jer. 18:12 ¶ “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Zech. 7:11 But they refused to pay attention hand turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear.
Heb. 12:25 ¶ See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.