NOT EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURES.

Misfit

Well-known member
I do not believe the RCC is the church of our Lord and Savior.
As is your right.
What was evolving?
The Christian Church. It was not the same in the year 400 as it was in the first days. The basics of Christ being the Savior, the Messiah didn't change, but the Christian faith was expounded upon. If you believe it remained stagnant, for you that is the way it is and I am not here to change your mind.

But that said, I don't put my faith in men, a religious institution.
You flub that "institution" off as if it were nothing. To us orthodox believers, Jesus is in and of the Church. I don't put my faith in men either, but I listen to those leading the Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
I put my faith in Christ as revealed in Scripture through the Holy Spirit.
I see, so you don't take your lead from anyone? Your Pastor or those "Reformers"? Scripture is revealed, and then it is interpreted. Everyone does it.

“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40).
I can post numerous quotes from other ECF's where they do indeed agree in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is indeed a remembrance; it is indeed a memorial; it is indeed His true body and blood. A point of contention between us that will live on. Such does not mean that I don't love you as a brother/sister in Christ.
Nothing is impossible for God. Your conclusion is true.
Agreement! Yea!

And your faith is placed in what the RCC tells you to believe.
I listen to those whom God has placed over me in an ecclesiastical sense. When I read the Scriptures, what they say makes sense - there is a concurrence between us. You do not come to your Christian faith in a vacuum. Others who believe like you do have handed down that belief through successive generations, and you follow them. There is nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.
It is not the church He established.
I respect you opinion.
 

Lastdaysbeliever

Well-known member
Tertullian continues....

Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, This is my body, that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body…

Tertullian’s point here is that Marcion’s “theory of a phantom body” fits with Christ “pretend[ing] the bread was His body,” because Marcion denied Jesus had a body in the first place. But the Christian believes Christ “made it His own body, by saying, This is my body.” The transformation does not take away the symbolic value of bread and wine, it confirms it.

Tertullian makes clear in multiple places that he believed that Jesus communicated his true body and blood under the “figures” or appearances of bread and wine:

On Modesty, chapter 9:

He (the prodigal who comes back to Christ) receives again the pristine garment,–the condition, to wit, which Adam by transgression had lost. The ring also he is then wont to receive for the first time, wherewith, after being interrogated, he publicly seals the agreement of faith, and thus thenceforward feeds upon the fatness of the Lord’s body—the Eucharist, to wit. [CA - Staples]

You have to be honest and admit these theologians were purposefully repeating Jesus' words. Not only because these were Jesus' words, because they were but to combat Gnosticism, Docetism, and other heresies that were turning Jesus into some sort of ghost figure who didn't possess a real body. But by emphasizing Jesus stating "this is my body" and "this is my blood", this solidified the true faith of Christ that He was 100% man. Had a body and blood. Not that the bread and wine were His literal body and blood.
 

Lastdaysbeliever

Well-known member
As is your right.

It's so much more than that. It's my responsibility, as a follower of Jesus Christ to defend the faith. When others are being misled into another Gospel we must pull them back in through the truth He delivered to us, once and for all.
The Christian Church. It was not the same in the year 400 as it was in the first days. The basics of Christ being the Savior, the Messiah didn't change, but the Christian faith was expounded upon. If you believe it remained stagnant, for you that is the way it is and I am not here to change your mind.

Granted, the church grew. On Pentecost alone 3000 were added. So yes, it did not stay stagnant. It grew. As far as the Christian faith being expounded on, illuminated, we look to what the Holy Spirit is telling us God the father said through Paul and the other writers of the NT and OT. What can be added to that? Transubstantiation. Mary's immaculate conception. Mary's assumption to heaven. Mary never having other children and being an "ever" virgin. The Pope speaking infallibly ex Cathedra. Unmarried priests. The wafer and wine changed to literally Jesus' body and blood. These are those expounded things you adhere to and you place your faith in your institution to teach you infallibly. What about the inerrant Word of God?!
You flub that "institution" off as if it were nothing. To us orthodox believers, Jesus is in and of the Church. I don't put my faith in men either, but I listen to those leading the Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

Flub? Not sure that's the right adjective for what you are trying to charge me with. That said, and in light of your claim as "orthodox believers" I'm as orthodox as the next born-again Christian and Catholics do not own that designation. And I see your Luke 10:16 quote and raise it with Galations 1:8-12. ;)

I see, so you don't take your lead from anyone? Your Pastor or those "Reformers"? Scripture is revealed, and then it is interpreted. Everyone does it.

I am part of a fellowship that teaches the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse and each of our leaders will tell you that we are to test their teachings by Scripture and if they are found to be in error they are open to correction. That is something missing from the RCC. Honestly.

I can post numerous quotes from other ECF's where they do indeed agree in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is indeed a remembrance; it is indeed a memorial; it is indeed His true body and blood. A point of contention between us that will live on. Such does not mean that I don't love you as a brother/sister in Christ.

I can do more. You first.
Agreement! Yea!

*internet applause...
I listen to those whom God has placed over me in an ecclesiastical sense. When I read the Scriptures, what they say makes sense - there is a concurrence between us. You do not come to your Christian faith in a vacuum. Others who believe like you do have handed down that belief through successive generations, and you follow them. There is nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.

The BoM and what their "prophet" tells them makes sense to Mormons too. As does the JW's bible translation. Same with islamists. Etc.

We need to do more than just read scripture. We are to study it. Ask the Holy Spirit to give us discernment about what we are reading and be willing to be corrected, humbly and with humility as we are sanctified by His Spirit. I am that, at least I try to be.
I respect you opinion.

And I love you and care about your eternal soul. I care so much for your salvation I am willing to go to battle for you. That is what Christ's love has taught me.

*edited to clarify a point
 
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Misfit

Well-known member
we must pull them back in through the truth He delivered to us, once and for all.
"The truth"? or is it just "Your truth"? We can look at the same passages in scripture and come up with a different outlook on them.

What can be added to that?
That the Church has real power and the authority to change things. I assume you reject the "Apostolic Succession" idea, so that basically ends it for anything else happening as regards certain things for you.

Transubstantiation. Mary's immaculate conception. Mary's assumption to heaven. Mary never having other children and being an "ever" virgin. The Pope speaking infallibly ex Cathedra. Unmarried priests. The wafer and wine changed to literally Jesus' body and blood. These are those expounded things you adhere to and you place your faith in your institution to teach you infallibly.
Yep. I see no problem with those things. I will repeat, the Church has the power and authority to make things happen, it was not just a suggestion or some nonsensical musings when Jesus gave this to the Church - He meant it.
What about the inerrant Word of God?!
What about it? You, like every other church or independent believer, have "A" interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, not "THE" interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. You kid yourself it you do not think that is not the case.
that we are to test their teachings by Scripture and if they are found to be in error they are open to correction. That is something missing from the RCC. Honestly.
There have been many times when voices have been raised in the Catholic Church throughout the centuries. The basic premise remains however that in the matters of faith and morals, the Catholic Church is right on the money and such pronouncements are accepted by the faithful as having come directly from God.

That said, and in light of your claim as "orthodox believers" I'm as orthodox as the next born-again Christian and Catholics do not own that designation.
We have a difference in definition here. You might be an Evangelical, you might be a Pentecostal type believer, you even might be a mainline Protestant, but you are not an orthodox Christian. Not in belief or in worship. Nope, that is not you. The "orthodox" designation goes to those who follow the long standing theological teaching of a belief in there being 7 sacraments and the Christian traditions that were handed down through the ages under the aegis of the visible church. If that is not where you are at, you are not an orthodox believing Christian.

and each of our leaders
Thank you for admitting that - now we are getting somewhere.

I can do more. You first.
Not interested in playing this game. Each of us can cite things by others, and even scripture to defend our positions. That my friend would be called an exercise in futility.

We need to do more than just read scripture. We are to study it.
While the Catholic Church exhorts it's members to just that and it is indeed profitable to do so, what really is the main message of the scriptures? It's call love. Love God with all your heart and your fellow man as you do yourself. God so loved the world that He sent His only son. If everyone were to live lives with love in their hearts this place on earth would be a real good place to live and God would be mightily pleased. We are to LIVE scripture!

And I love you and care about your eternal soul.
A beautiful sentiment.

I care so much for your salvation I am willing to go to battle for you.
Pray for me then. Life is tough and I need all the prayers I can get to make it through it.
That is what Christ's love has taught me.
Christ's love has taught me a lot since I returned to Him 35 years ago. I am not the same person that I was before I earnestly returned to Him in constant prayer and worship.
 
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mica

Well-known member
As is your right.

The Christian Church. It was not the same in the year 400 as it was in the first days.
no, it grew and grew and grew even more with Paul's ministry. people became part of His church in the same way - by heart belief in Christ alone, their hearts were changed by God.

The basics of Christ being the Savior, the Messiah didn't change,
right, it has always been as scripture says, not as the rcc teaches it.

but the Christian faith was expounded upon. If you believe it remained stagnant, for you that is the way it is and I am not here to change your mind.
the rcc started catholicism by perverting Christianity, which was based on His word not those of the rcc men. faith in Christ is very, very different than faith in the rcc.

You flub that "institution" off as if it were nothing. To us orthodox believers, Jesus is in and of the Church. I don't put my faith in men either, but I listen to those leading the Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
you contradict yourself in 1 sentence.

He was speaking to those who knew Him, believed in Him and followed Him, not to leaders of the rcc. you hear words of rcc men, not His word. the rcc men reject what Christ and His followers taught, in doing that they reject Him and the One Who sent Him. those who listen to and follow the rcc men do the same by believing what it teaches.


I see, so you don't take your lead from anyone? Your Pastor or those "Reformers"? Scripture is revealed, and then it is interpreted. Everyone does it.
for believers, the Lead is the Holy Spirit thru His word.

if scripture is revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is
interpreted by Him.

I can post numerous quotes from other ECF's where they do indeed agree in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is indeed a remembrance; it is indeed a memorial; it is indeed His true body and blood. A point of contention between us that will live on. Such does not mean that I don't love you as a brother/sister in Christ.

...
they aren't one of His direct followers, nor is their false teaching in scripture.
 

Lastdaysbeliever

Well-known member
"The truth"? or is it just "Your truth"? We can look at the same passages in scripture and come up with a different outlook on them.

Good morning. I would have responded yesterday but it was golf tournament day with my brothers from church. The course was a swamp due to all the rain we recently experienced and so no golf carts. :( By the 3rd hole my feet were hurting, due to my inattention to a recurring problem, but I made it through almost 12 of the 18 before I stopped. I've golfed better but it has been a few years so that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Anyway...

If I write or speak anything that is not based on scripture, when discussing what it means to follow Jesus, to be born-again, then it is "(my) truth".
But this is not about SOLA Scriptura, or my truth, or your truth but about what the RCC has changed about the essentials to the faith and how that is diametrically opposed to Scripture.

That the Church has real power and the authority to change things. I assume you reject the "Apostolic Succession" idea, so that basically ends it for anything else happening as regards certain things for you.

Thank you for your honesty. "That the Church has the real power and authority to change things..." speaks volumes. What can your church change since it has the "...real power and authority to change things,"...? What is outside its power and authority to change when it comes to Christianity...that should give anyone pause, let alone knowing that you are good with that.

Apostolic succession: the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, taught by the Roman Catholic Church but denied by most Protestants.

Indeed, rejected!

Yep. I see no problem with those things. I will repeat, the Church has the power and authority to make things happen, it was not just a suggestion or some nonsensical musings when Jesus gave this to the Church - He meant it.

So your church tells you.

What about it? You, like every other church or independent believer, have "A" interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, not "THE" interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. You kid yourself it you do not think that is not the case.

Scripture interprets scripture. Eisegesis versus exegesis. I do not interpret Scripture alone but with the Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth through God-breathed Scripture. Not a self-appointed institution telling me what to believe the Bible says. One is higher than the other. Can you guess which one it is?

John 16: All this I have told you so that you will not fall away 2 They will put you out of the synagogue in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going? 6 Rather, you are filled with griefs because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

There have been many times when voices have been raised in the Catholic Church throughout the centuries. The basic premise remains however that in the matters of faith and morals, the Catholic Church is right on the money and such pronouncements are accepted by the faithful as having come directly from God.

At what cost to those who spoke truth to the RCC throughout the centuries? Truly.

We have a difference in definition here. You might be an Evangelical, you might be a Pentecostal type believer, you even might be a mainline Protestant, but you are not an orthodox Christian. Not in belief or in worship. Nope, that is not you. The "orthodox" designation goes to those who follow the long standing theological teaching of a belief in there being 7 sacraments and the Christian traditions that were handed down through the ages under the aegis of the visible church. If that is not where you are at, you are not an orthodox believing Christian.

You are correct and your definition is wrong. But that's what RCC does right? Change things because it has the real power and authority to do so.

Orthodox: (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.

So, again, the RCC does not own that word, as much as you want to make it yours and yours alone. That's not how it works.

Thank you for admitting that - now we are getting somewhere.

I'm not giving quarter here. Our leaders are held responsible for what they teach and if wrong will be confronted for it and expected to correct. If they don't then they are no longer in that position. Unlike the RCC. What they say goes and no one is allowed to question their pronouncements on threat of ex-communication but historically being martyred. Big difference.

Not interested in playing this game. Each of us can cite things by others, and even scripture to defend our positions. That my friend would be called an exercise in futility.

THIS is not a game. This all has eternal consequences.

While the Catholic Church exhorts it's members to just that and it is indeed profitable to do so, what really is the main message of the scriptures? It's call love. Love God with all your heart and your fellow man as you do yourself. God so loved the world that He sent His only son. If everyone were to live lives with love in their hearts this place on earth would be a real good place to live and God would be mightily pleased. We are to LIVE scripture!

The RCC tells its members to read the Bible but only allow it to interpret what it says Scripture says. ("...(Jesus)He set up the Church and you would be wise to listen to it."). You are not given the power to argue against their interpretation, their changes and add-ons to Christianity because your institution possesses "...the real power and authority to change things..." . Your own words.

That said, over-simplification in your conclusion. Many people say they love Jesus. Many profess love for their fellow man. Many declare God will not condemn them because they are good. I'm sorry but all of those claims, and others like them, are all well and good but not reality and what does it mean to "LIVE Scripture"? Does it mean praying to Mary? To saints? Saying the rosary? Believing in the IC? The assumption of Mary? Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad infinitum. I know your response. It will be : "... the Church has the real power and authority to change things..." but what does it meant to live Scripture?

A beautiful sentiment.

Pray for me then. Life is tough and I need all the prayers I can get to make it through it.

I already have been but God promises us we will suffer. Do you know what that produces?

Romans 5: 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


At times we do get down, that struggle between the flesh and spirit that Paul speaks of, but when we remember what Christ suffered all that we go through pales in comparison. One of my favorite colloquial sayings is "rub some dirt in it, you'll be fine" :)

Christ's love has taught me a lot since I returned to Him 35 years ago. I am not the same person that I was before I earnestly returned to Him in constant prayer and worship.

A beautiful sentiment.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Again, I am greatly enjoying our interactions. It is a personal joy for me and I thank you for you willingness to openly discuss our differences. Will any of it bear fruit? Only time will tell.
 

Misfit

Well-known member

Good morning. I would have responded yesterday but it was golf tournament day with my brothers from church. The course was a swamp due to all the rain we recently experienced and so no golf carts. :( By the 3rd hole my feet were hurting, due to my inattention to a recurring problem, but I made it through almost 12 of the 18 before I stopped. I've golfed better but it has been a few years so that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Anyway...
The closest I get to anything "golf" is riding in my golf cart down to the mail shack to check my box at the senior park where I live. I haven't picked up a club since High School when I was an avid player. It is a great game to be sure, a little frustrating at times, but still a great game to be involved in. Fore!

But this is not about SOLA Scriptura, or my truth, or your truth but about what the RCC has changed about the essentials to the faith and how that is diametrically opposed to Scripture.
I disagree.

Apostolic succession: the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, taught by the Roman Catholic Church but denied by most Protestants.

Indeed, rejected!
That is exactly what I thought you would say. I respect a person who stands by what they believe, and I do the same when it comes to the Apostolic Succession.

So your church tells you.
It's right there in the bible.

I do not interpret Scripture alone but with the Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth through God-breathed Scripture.
That's what everyone says. Why the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church too and has done so for the last 2000 years. We both know the Holy Spirit does not lie, so someone is misinterpreting what the Holy Spirit is trying to convey.

Orthodox: (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.
Which describes the Christian Church BEFORE all the new Christian sects popped up after the 16th century and beyond. I'm sorry, but you are trying to take the word for yourselves and I understand that you have to do it in order to justify your new faith tradition. But "orthodox" means believing in the 7 sacraments, the creeds etc. as was taught by the Christian Church for over a millennia and a half.

Our leaders are held responsible for what they teach and if wrong will be confronted for it and expected to correct. If they don't then they are no longer in that position.
Yes, I understand this. If the leader (s) have the majority of the congregation on their side, they stay, if they don't they will be forced out. If the dissenters are forced out they will either go to another church or they will start their own, as the leader (s) will also do. As you know, this is a common practice and it happens all the time. It certainly does not inspire confidence or a continuance of the message of Christian unity amongst yourselves in my opinion.

THIS is not a game. This all has eternal consequences.
I stand by what I said. Each of us can make the scriptures sing the tune we want them to. You will disagree with me, and I will disagree with you on what we each have come up with. That means an impasse, a futile endeavor.

The RCC tells its members to read the Bible but only allow it to interpret what it says Scripture says.
Yes. If I came up with something different, I would have to go out and start my own church.
Does it mean praying to Mary? To saints? Saying the rosary? Believing in the IC? The assumption of Mary? Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad infinitum.
No it does not. (Surprise!) To me, living the scriptures as we go about our daily lives means one thing - love. It means being nice to others even when they are not so nice to you. It means seeing Christ in the most down and out person. It means helping others even when you don't want to. It means doing your job to the best of your ability. Am I always able to rise to that level? Nope, not me - but I try my best.

You are not given the power to argue against their interpretation, their changes and add-ons to Christianity because your institution possesses "...the real power and authority to change things..." . Your own words.
Yes, those are my words and beliefs and I stand by them.

I already have been but God promises us we will suffer.
Of course, and that is why Jesus is the perfect example to us. He suffered terribly in His sacrifice, and us taking that into account helps us, because our sufferings while bad for us, pale in comparison to what He went though. Face it, this life we must go through can definitely be a challenge, a constant struggle, but somehow the great majority of us persevere and hang on until called home.

Again, I am greatly enjoying our interactions. It is a personal joy for me and I thank you for you willingness to openly discuss our differences.
The same here. Well look, though we may differ in certain aspects of the Christian faith, Jesus Christ as the Savior, the Messiah, as God Incarnate, gives us a common focus point.

Will any of it bear fruit? Only time will tell.
Only if I see you in the Catholic section of heaven. (LOL)
 

mica

Well-known member
The closest I get to anything "golf" is riding in my golf cart down to the mail shack to check my box at the senior park where I live. I haven't picked up a club since High School when I was an avid player. It is a great game to be sure, a little frustrating at times, but still a great game to be involved in. Fore!


I disagree.


That is exactly what I thought you would say. I respect a person who stands by what they believe, and I do the same when it comes to the Apostolic Succession.


It's right there in the bible.
Lastdaysbeliever said:
I do not interpret Scripture alone but with the Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth through God-breathed Scripture.
That's what everyone says. Why the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church too and has done so for the last 2000 years.
no, the Holy Spirit can guide no one contrary to God's word. what the rcc teaches is almost fully contrary to God's word. the HS guides no one to pervert the words He inspired men to write, nor can He guide/lead anyone away from Christ. those who have become His, His body, His church thru the rebirth have the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit. the rcc doesn't even teach the truth of being born again or the majority of the rest of His teachings. that's why catholics don't know the basics of salvation / the rebirth / the gospel / when the NC began etc. and it's why they can't answer basic questions they're asked - those every believer knows. it's also why their center of attention is on all of those other people, things and works they're taught by the rcc to believe in - instead of on Christ. they don't have the desire from their hearts for Christ and His word. the desire of the hearts of catholics is for the rcc, pope, Mary and all of the various catholic trappings (distractions away from Him). there's no room in their catholic 'inn' for Him.

We both know the Holy Spirit does not lie, so someone is misinterpreting what the Holy Spirit is trying to convey.
...
no He doesn't and He can't, yet you've just claimed He does lie. catholics are the ones who don't understand scripture, if they did they wouldn't yank words / verses out of context in their attempt to support a rcc lie. they'd read, study, research and understand His word - but they don't.
the focus of catholics is on the rcc, its false teachings, the pope/magisterium/Mary ecfs... not on Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.
 

Johan

Well-known member
No it does not. (Surprise!) To me, living the scriptures as we go about our daily lives means one thing - love. It means being nice to others even when they are not so nice to you. It means seeing Christ in the most down and out person. It means helping others even when you don't want to. It means doing your job to the best of your ability. Am I always able to rise to that level? Nope, not me - but I try my best.
So Christianity boils down to being nice to others and trying your best? Is God content with you trying your best? If that were the case, why did Christ have to die on the cross? No, Christianity is about being perfect. Unless you are perfect before God, nothing is gained.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

That is not a mere ambition set before us—it is a requirement. So how do you attain perfection?
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Good morning. I would have responded yesterday but it was golf tournament day with my brothers from church. The course was a swamp due to all the rain we recently experienced and so no golf carts. :( By the 3rd hole my feet were hurting, due to my inattention to a recurring problem, but I made it through almost 12 of the 18 before I stopped. I've golfed better but it has been a few years so that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Anyway...

If I write or speak anything that is not based on scripture, when discussing what it means to follow Jesus, to be born-again, then it is "(my) truth".
But this is not about SOLA Scriptura, or my truth, or your truth but about what the RCC has changed about the essentials to the faith and how that is diametrically opposed to Scripture.



Thank you for your honesty. "That the Church has the real power and authority to change things..." speaks volumes. What can your church change since it has the "...real power and authority to change things,"...? What is outside its power and authority to change when it comes to Christianity...that should give anyone pause, let alone knowing that you are good with that.

Apostolic succession: the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, taught by the Roman Catholic Church but denied by most Protestants.

Indeed, rejected!



So your church tells you.



Scripture interprets scripture. Eisegesis versus exegesis. I do not interpret Scripture alone but with the Holy Spirit guiding me into all truth through God-breathed Scripture. Not a self-appointed institution telling me what to believe the Bible says. One is higher than the other. Can you guess which one it is?

John 16: All this I have told you so that you will not fall away 2 They will put you out of the synagogue in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going? 6 Rather, you are filled with griefs because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”



At what cost to those who spoke truth to the RCC throughout the centuries? Truly.



You are correct and your definition is wrong. But that's what RCC does right? Change things because it has the real power and authority to do so.

Orthodox: (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.

So, again, the RCC does not own that word, as much as you want to make it yours and yours alone. That's not how it works.



I'm not giving quarter here. Our leaders are held responsible for what they teach and if wrong will be confronted for it and expected to correct. If they don't then they are no longer in that position. Unlike the RCC. What they say goes and no one is allowed to question their pronouncements on threat of ex-communication but historically being martyred. Big difference.



THIS is not a game. This all has eternal consequences.



The RCC tells its members to read the Bible but only allow it to interpret what it says Scripture says. ("...(Jesus)He set up the Church and you would be wise to listen to it."). You are not given the power to argue against their interpretation, their changes and add-ons to Christianity because your institution possesses "...the real power and authority to change things..." . Your own words.

That said, over-simplification in your conclusion. Many people say they love Jesus. Many profess love for their fellow man. Many declare God will not condemn them because they are good. I'm sorry but all of those claims, and others like them, are all well and good but not reality and what does it mean to "LIVE Scripture"? Does it mean praying to Mary? To saints? Saying the rosary? Believing in the IC? The assumption of Mary? Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad infinitum. I know your response. It will be : "... the Church has the real power and authority to change things..." but what does it meant to live Scripture?



I already have been but God promises us we will suffer. Do you know what that produces?

Romans 5: 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


At times we do get down, that struggle between the flesh and spirit that Paul speaks of, but when we remember what Christ suffered all that we go through pales in comparison. One of my favorite colloquial sayings is "rub some dirt in it, you'll be fine" :)



A beautiful sentiment.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Again, I am greatly enjoying our interactions. It is a personal joy for me and I thank you for you willingness to openly discuss our differences. Will any of it bear fruit? Only time will tell.
Hi, Lastdaybeliever. When I was a nCCs reading, studying the Bible and being guided by the Holy Spirit I learned that Jesus had indeed given Peter and his successors authority. If I want to know what to believe as a Christian, I need to listen to the one who has been given authority - that is the Pope.
 

Misfit

Well-known member
So Christianity boils down to being nice to others and trying your best?
The whole of the scriptures is a message of love. The love God had for us in sending his only Son, and the love we are to show others as we live this life. That's it, that is the whole of God's word and what He wanted to impart to us. You could read the scriptures a million times and the message will always come out the same. If it is not that, then what do YOU think it's all about?

Is God content with you trying your best?
God takes into account that we are humans, that we subject to every distraction and failure that exists here on earth. My own father taught me to do the best I can as I go through this life and after that you can only deal with the consequences of whatever you attempted to do.

No, Christianity is about being perfect.
Yes, that's what it is about. How many of us are really "perfect"? How many times is the "perfect" person forgiven? Seven times? No! It's seventy times seven. God understands that fully.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)
Yes, that is a great goal. And if we are not as perfect as you seem to be, then what? Not any forgiveness is possible, and will Jesus not be by my side advocating on my behalf on my Judgement Day?

So tell me, who is your God? Is He the ruthless one full of wrath towards His own creations who will smite people and send them to hell with a smile on His face just for fun? No friend, that is not my God. The God whom I believe is full of love, compassion and forgiveness towards His son's and daughters who experienced the journey here on earth. And yes, they are indeed the same souls who tried their best while they were here.
 

Johan

Well-known member
The whole of the scriptures is a message of love. The love God had for us in sending his only Son, and the love we are to show others as we live this life.
God did not merely send His Son to show people how to "live this life." He sent His Son to die for our sins. That was what was needed in order to save His sinful people.

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NET)
That's it, that is the whole of God's word and what He wanted to impart to us. You could read the scriptures a million times and the message will always come out the same. If it is not that, then what do YOU think it's all about?
The whole of God's word is about Christ and Him crucified for our sins. If we read through the entire Scriptures, yet fail to discover Him and His salvific mission therein, it is as if we had not read them at all.

You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (John 5:39–40)
God takes into account that we are humans, that we subject to every distraction and failure that exists here on earth. My own father taught me to do the best I can as I go through this life and after that you can only deal with the consequences of whatever you attempted to do.
When we stand before God on judgment day, you being "human" will not acquit you. Either you are perfectly righteous, or you are not. Either you are perfectly holy, or you are not. And if you are not perfectly righteous, your inheritance will not be the Kingdom of God.

For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:22–23)

For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. (Jas. 2:10)
Yes, that's what it is about. How many of us are really "perfect"?
No one. But we who believe have been perfected in Christ (Heb. 10:14).
How many times is the "perfect" person forgiven? Seven times? No! It's seventy times seven. God understands that fully.
Better still:

Then he says, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer." Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. (Heb. 10:17–18)

So the message of the Gospel is that we attain perfection and forgiveness (by faith) in Christ alone.
Yes, that is a great goal. And if we are not as perfect as you seem to be, then what? Not any forgiveness is possible, and will Jesus not be by my side advocating on my behalf on my Judgement Day?
If we are not as perfect as Christ is, then we are not worthy to enter Heaven. God is love, but He is also a holy God.
So tell me, who is your God? Is He the ruthless one full of wrath towards His own creations who will smite people and send them to hell with a smile on His face just for fun?
No, but because He is a holy God who hates sin.
No friend, that is not my God. The God whom I believe is full of love, compassion and forgiveness towards His son's and daughters who experienced the journey here on earth. And yes, they are indeed the same souls who tried their best while they were here.
God displays His love precisely by sending His Son for our salvation. It is by faith in Him, and only by faith in Him, that we are saved. Humans "trying their best" will simply not cut it. Their works are woefully inadequate.

There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. (John 3:18)

Those who believe in Him will not face condemnation. Those who do not believe in Him will face condemnation, regardless of them "trying their best." That is the hopeful, but also stern, message of the Gospel.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
The whole of the scriptures is a message of love. The love God had for us in sending his only Son, and the love we are to show others as we live this life. That's it, that is the whole of God's word and what He wanted to impart to us. You could read the scriptures a million times and the message will always come out the same. If it is not that, then what do YOU think it's all about?


God takes into account that we are humans, that we subject to every distraction and failure that exists here on earth. My own father taught me to do the best I can as I go through this life and after that you can only deal with the consequences of whatever you attempted to do.


Yes, that's what it is about. How many of us are really "perfect"? How many times is the "perfect" person forgiven? Seven times? No! It's seventy times seven. God understands that fully.


Yes, that is a great goal. And if we are not as perfect as you seem to be, then what? Not any forgiveness is possible, and will Jesus not be by my side advocating on my behalf on my Judgement Day?

So tell me, who is your God? Is He the ruthless one full of wrath towards His own creations who will smite people and send them to hell with a smile on His face just for fun? No friend, that is not my God. The God whom I believe is full of love, compassion and forgiveness towards His son's and daughters who experienced the journey here on earth. And yes, they are indeed the same souls who tried their best while they were here.
The whole of the scriptures is a message of love.

No, when Jesus met the disciples on the road to Emmaus He went through the o.t. and showed them everything concerning Himself. It wasn't a lesson on love but about how He was seen all through the o.t. and His advent into humanity to give Himself for us. Its a message of atonement and bringing us back into a relationship with God. Does that involve love, sure. But if there is no cross and subsequent resurrection then there is no salvation. Love as much as you want but without that we are still hell bound.
 

Lastdaysbeliever

Well-known member
Hi, Lastdaybeliever. When I was a nCCs reading, studying the Bible and being guided by the Holy Spirit I learned that Jesus had indeed given Peter and his successors authority. If I want to know what to believe as a Christian, I need to listen to the one who has been given authority - that is the Pope.

Hi dingoling.

Your comment meaning only when the Pope speaks infallibly, right?
 

mica

Well-known member
Johan said:
No, Christianity is about being perfect.
...
Yes, that's what it is about. How many of us are really "perfect"? How many times is the "perfect" person forgiven? Seven times? No! It's seventy times seven. God understands that fully.
...
what is the meaning of the word 'perfect' as used in those verses? have you ever looked it up?

yes, He does, as do believers. catholics do not.
 

Misfit

Well-known member
Does that involve love, sure. But if there is no cross and subsequent resurrection then there is no salvation
Everything I said was meant in that context, and I said nothing to indicate otherwise. Stop with promulgating this nonsense that somehow we Catholics do not see Jesus as the Alpha and the Omega, that everything starts with Him and having faith, and that everything ends with Him at the Judgement.
 
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