Not your standard WoF sermon material

It's the video that shows why I'm reluctant to return to watching the Chosen. "Do not add to the Word lest you be reproved and proven a liar."

Phy, I'm glad you posted this. What do you think? You tell me what you thought when you saw this, and I'll tell you what i think of it. Frankly, it made me remember all my friends on the board. What would Ted say? How about Joe? Or ABM?
 
By the way...this is your standard critics' sermon. I was a part of a Brethren fellowship in Europe where there was a woman in her twenties with a severely hunched back that would have inspired Hugo to write a sequel. She asked the elders to lay hands on her after the manner James prescribes, because James makes the consequences of effective, fervent prayer very clear. The elders chose to do four weeks of teaching on why God does not always answer prayers the way we ask and would normally expect...speaking all a common language. (For instance, if I pray, "Heal my back..." and James says, "...will raise him up...", one would normally expect a healed and restored back.) There are many reasons God would not heal Little James or my hunched back friend that no one ever wants to mention:
  1. He is inscrutable and his ways remain a mystery.
  2. "Healing" doesn't mean physical healing. If your attitude is positive, that's "healing" in the neo-biblical sense.
  3. He didn't mean what He said in James' epistle, and we need to discover the real meaning of "...will raise him up."
  4. He doesn't feel like it. He doesn't need to prove anything any more. We have a book.
  5. You'll be a much greater blessing to everyone hunched over, in pain and dying of diseases than you can imagine. (In The Chosen, Little James blessed the team by making them walk so much more slowly throughout the region.)
  6. Jesus only ever healed for show...to prove something He, being God, never really needed to prove. (His "compassion" was part of the show, and is not for today...in the same sense that it's effective and works for us.)
At the end of the four weeks, we were ready to accept that nothing would happen when the elders prayed, and, to no surprise to anyone, nothing happened, except she never asked again...anyone. Nor would anyone else in that church. Ever. The desired result was obtained demonstrably.

WoFers are skewered because we examine biblical issues, like faith or the lack thereof:
  1. Jesus could do no miracles in Nazareth and marveled at the unbelief of the Nazarenes among whom He grew up.
  2. The disciples could not heal the boy due to "their lack of faith."
  3. The father needed to believe to see his son healed.
  4. The woman was healed by her faith. "Your faith has made you whole."
  5. Signs follow those who believe.
  6. The church today is largely steeped in Nazarene-like unbelief, and signs follow precious few.
If I'm not allowed to examine my own faith for fear of being accused by those whose ministry is to accuse the brethren, how will my faith increase to where the signs follow?

The real question is, what is the best way to quench faith, if not by a highly successful movie where Jesus waits until the third season to tell Little James, whose infirmity is pure invention, "No."
 
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It would be cool if we could discuss this...but the critics have deadened the board to where "Wof is dead" is the best they can do...

What do you think Jamesie? Joe? Ted? Are you "Little James" fans? Did this Jesus do a good job explaining your new gospel? It amounts to the best expression of unbelief I've seen in a very long time.

And a former colleague of mine is one of the extras, in a blue outfit somewhere in the crowd...it was filmed in the raw morning cold in Texas, apparently.
 
Since you invoked my name beachie I feel obligated to reply. Now, I have not seen any of the "chosen" episodes but I do know what it's about. You stated that your reluctant to return watching the show, why? I suspect it doesn't teach that Jesus was not tortured by Satan while in hell? Or one is absolutely guaranteed complete healing as long as he has faith. And how about, "you can have what you say," this is an oldie but goody. And btw, dead is dead, which means there is no more life in this heretical movement you adhere to.

IN HINN,
james
 
Since you invoked my name beachie I feel obligated to reply. Now, I have not seen any of the "chosen" episodes but I do know what it's about. You stated that your reluctant to return watching the show, why? I suspect it doesn't teach that Jesus was not tortured by Satan while in hell?

IN HINN,
james
So glad you took this on, Jamesie. I always miss our exchanges.

Jesus hasn't gone to hell with boxing gloves, yet...it's only season three or four of, I think, seven.

Let me, first, recommend the series. This Jesus is as approachable and credible, having as well written a script, as any I've seen, and in the first season, his encounter with Nicodemus is so moving, I've used it as a sermon illustration. Very well enacted, not only for its script, but also because Nicodemus is encountered early in the first episode, before we meet Jesus, frustrated after he was called on, by his attempt to deliver a young woman severely demon oppressed. He witnesses Jesus do what he could not, and he's drawn to him. When he delivers the Sermon on the Mount at the start of the third season, it's excellent. The writers successfully create a synopsis of miraculous encounters and show a very human, very divine Messiah do as Jesus did in the gospels.

Or one is absolutely guaranteed complete healing as long as he has faith. And how about, "you can have what you say," this is an oldie but goody. And btw, dead is dead, which means there is no more life in this heretical movement you adhere to.
This is indeed the issue.

One of the twelve disciples is James, called "Little James," to distinguish him from James the son of Zebedee, brother of John, is lame. The writers chose to have this James, Little James, have a gait so uneven that he must walk with a stick wherever he goes. This James, in season three, in the scene Phy linked to above, comes to Jesus and asks Him to heal him. Jesus tells him no...his handicap is to bless him and to make him a blessing. And thus, the gospel is changed forever.

Watch the link here:
but more, read the comments underneath the clip. Watch how Jesus represents your "gospel" of the inscrutable of God...and healing on a whim.

EVERYBODY in the comments section is moved to tears, and no one questions the doctrine, because their own handicaps and disabilities, impotence and unbelief have been validated by Jesus' kind words to James, before James goes limping happily this time off with his stick and new purpose.

My problem is simple: Jesus ONLY said "No," twice. By not going immediately, He said no to his friends Lazarus and His sisters in Bethany, and He said "No" to the Syro-Phoenician woman...because SHE, a Gentile by birth, could exhibit her extraordinary faith to the Jews before He responded by telling her that her own faith was all she needed to deliver her daughter, thus buttressing our own concept of faith. Other than that, Jesus turned no one away. When the disciples couldn't heal, it was because of their lack of faith. When the Jesus could do no miracles in Nazareth, he didn't marvel at his lack of power...but at their unbelief. In short, their expectations were minimal and they were perfectly met. Jesus will answer your prayers according to your own expectations.

If Jesus went out "healing some of those who came to him," or "healing a small percentage of those who came to him," or "healing occasionally...", or "healing for sure but most often not"...who would have gone out to see him? If Paul came to Corinth and spoke like Apollos, so that the Corinthians' faith lay primarily in his well-chosen words and in the wisdom of man, and not in the power of God...what would the church of Corinth looked like?

But Jesus didn't heal once in a great while. He healed ALL..and His power lay in His compassion demonstrated by healing all. All the disability of ALL who came to Him without stinting and almost first time every time...Once, He had to pray twice for the blind guy who saw "men like trees walking." So He did pray twice, until the healing came. This power proved the coming of the kingdom. To claim that the kingdom is not for today is to suggest that the Lord's prayer is not for today...His kingdom will not come. His will will not be done.

This is not a gospel. It is certainly not the gospel of the kingdom. As iniquity abounds, either our love grows cold, or we, with compassion, pray as Jesus taught His disciples to pray until we begin to act as His disciples acted in the face of Little James' infirmity.

Simple as that.

(Watching the clip again, I caught something the wiley writers included: "You will be healed. It's only a matter of time..." Jesus says that in the end. It's WoF doctrine. I might go back to watching the show. These guys could write Little James' healing into the next season and put an end to all conflict.)
 
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I understand James' point. Those are two demonic doctrines. However, I will say this, WoF was a movement that was started for the right reasons. It was to come back to the purity of the Word. But because it was only a movement where there was not true leadership, it created a vacuum that was filled by evil men who adopted the mantle of leadership. They introduced these evil doctrines and attracted like minded people to follow them. I have no use for most all those leaders that now tout the WoF. I believe some are demon possessed, ie, Copeland putting his own blood in wine for his leadership to drink at Communion. (This is on video with him directing it)
 
I understand James' point. Those are two demonic doctrines. However, I will say this, WoF was a movement that was started for the right reasons.
The name was coined when Hagin began to teach. WoF distinguishes itself by affirming Jamesie's pet peeve doctrines:
  1. One is absolutely guaranteed complete healing as long as he has faith. James imposes an alternative to believe the promise of scripture, "Don't forget ALL His benefits. He heals ALL our diseases," and argues against the scripture that makes the promise. WoF has no alternative to believing God....even when, as in Hebrews 11, we're sawed in half believing. God said it...it is true.
  2. "you can have what you say," this is an oldie but goody. Jesus said it, not once but at least three times, and His brother James said the equivalent in his epistle. It's great to have alternatives to believing...but then Jesus could do no miracles in Nazareth due to their unbelief.
Unbelief has consequences.


It was to come back to the purity of the Word. But because it was only a movement where there was not true leadership, it created a vacuum that was filled by evil men who adopted the mantle of leadership.
There is no alternative to knowing God by knowing His Word, but dwelling IN it as Jesus said.

When your doctrine comes from YouTube videos or...in the eighties...tapes...your doctrine is still taught by men. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY certified teacher of the faith, and those taught of God obey Him...and do not need to extract tithes for their seven mansions obtained in this life.

They introduced these evil doctrines and attracted like minded people to follow them. I have no use for most all those leaders that now tout the WoF. I believe some are demon possessed, ie, Copeland putting his own blood in wine for his leadership to drink at Communion. (This is on video with him directing it)
Not all doctrines are evil...

Not all criticisms are valid. Great to see you as always, Mikey
 
The name was coined when Hagin began to teach. WoF distinguishes itself by affirming Jamesie's pet peeve doctrines:
  1. One is absolutely guaranteed complete healing as long as he has faith. James imposes an alternative to believe the promise of scripture, "Don't forget ALL His benefits. He heals ALL our diseases," and argues against the scripture that makes the promise. WoF has no alternative to believing God....even when, as in Hebrews 11, we're sawed in half believing. God said it...it is true.
  2. "you can have what you say," this is an oldie but goody. Jesus said it, not once but at least three times, and His brother James said the equivalent in his epistle. It's great to have alternatives to believing...but then Jesus could do no miracles in Nazareth due to their unbelief.
Unbelief has consequences.


There is no alternative to knowing God by knowing His Word, but dwelling IN it as Jesus said.

When your doctrine comes from YouTube videos or...in the eighties...tapes...your doctrine is still taught by men. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY certified teacher of the faith, and those taught of God obey Him...and do not need to extract tithes for their seven mansions obtained in this life.

Not all doctrines are evil...

Not all criticisms are valid. Great to see you as always, Mikey
I agree. However, there are things being done under the heading of WoF that are evil, hence the Copeland thing.

I would caution, though, on your number two point. You can have what you say as is following the will of God. I have heard Psalms 37, along with Mark 11, used erroneously or, at the least, leads others to believe wrong. I would submit that it is not the giving you the wants you have, IE, I want a new Harley, but rather, He changes your desires to be His desires so that you ask in accordance with His will. Maybe you knew this already, but thought I would point it out.

Good to see you too.
 
I agree. However, there are things being done under the heading of WoF that are evil, hence the Copeland thing.
There are things being done under the heading of "Christian" that are evil. WoF doesn't hold a monopoly on that. Read what Paul told the Ephesians in Acts 20, "I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them." Even from our number...distorting the truth...drawing disciples away after them..."

It's not a WoF thing. It's how we prioritize the unity of the faith in the bond of peace. If my call is to draw you away to my call...that's not a sign of maturity or call.

I would caution, though, on your number two point. You can have what you say as is following the will of God.
Wrestle with the context: Jesus cursed a fig tree that was not even in season. Figs are ripe in the fall...This is passover, the spring. Jesus did here one of the strangest miracles, by His Word only, and seemingly on a whim. He was hungry and there were no figs. Do you want to careen needlessly off into symbolism, because His meaning is not clear???

No...Jesus told them, "Have God's faith..." literal translation from the Greek "Echete pistin theou." Theou" is genitive of quality: divine faith or faith as God has, which faith He exhibited when He said, "Light be," and light was in the face of darkness, emptiness and formlessness.. God can say to anything and it will do. Jesus is inviting us to have like faith as He displayed with the tree. We can do what He says we can do. When you attenuate the promise, you change it according to your own sensitivities and create your own safer version of the gospel. This teaching, biblically based, and with many cross references, is what distinguishes WoF doctrine from the substitute that unbelief demands.

I have heard Psalms 37, along with Mark 11, used erroneously or, at the least, leads others to believe wrong.

I would submit that it is not the giving you the wants you have, IE, I want a new Harley, but rather, He changes your desires to be His desires so that you ask in accordance with His will. Maybe you knew this already, but thought I would point it out.
Let's bring lurkers in: "Trust in the Lord and do good. Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. Delight yourself also in Him, and He will give you the desires of your heart." (I quoted from memory from the version I was reading when the Holy Spirit engraved it on my heart.)

This is not parallel. And it can indeed be read either way, according to the need at that time. You're not moving mountains...you're trusting and doing good. Being given the desires of your heart speaks of the relationship you are cultivating through trusting and doing and cultivating.

Every desire born of that relationship flows from the heart of love that you are measured with.

When it comes to our words: Jesus said we'll be judged for every idle word we speak. Mark 11 makes it very clear why. There is so much more we must be doing, using our words as He used His and the time is at hand. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. The question we must all ask is, "What would Jesus say to this, now...this day?" It's time to speak with pistin theou.

If we are "men under authority," we say go and it goes.
Good to see you too.
It's still home to me.
 
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