Now--the rest of the story

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:

The only way we are perfect in God's eyes is by having Jesus' righteousness credited to us for our own,

If Jesus' righteousness is credited to us, as our own---is the complete story---then why are all mankind judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 16:27----King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The scriptures do teach some things about the perfection process:

1) That God Redeemed all of mankind from the condemnation of the Fall, through His Atonement and Resurrection--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now--we answer for our own choices--and not Adam's choice--as John5:28-29 shows, although eternal life, as an opportunity for all men--was purchased by Christ alone--as a free gift to all men.

2) Those who walk in the light(faith in Christ))--are Redeemed from their own personal sins--through the Blood of Christ:(by grace are ye saved)

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That "walk in the light" has integral components which make it up, IE--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, taking care of the poor, enduring to the end, following the Spirit, etc.(faith in Christ)

3) Our doing of those things which God commands--are righteous acts, and doing righteousness(walking in the light)--contributes to our personal righteousness:

1 John 3:7----King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
If Jesus' righteousness is credited to us, as our own---is the complete story---then why are all mankind judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

Imputation doctrine is the bunk of misguided idolators.

Believers do God's works and his works are not filthy rags. And that is how we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We deny ourselves and our works to do the works of God.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 16:27----King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The scriptures do teach some things about the perfection process:

1) That God Redeemed all of mankind from the condemnation of the Fall, through His Atonement and Resurrection--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now--we answer for our own choices--and not Adam's choice--as John5:28-29 shows, although eternal life, as an opportunity for all men--was purchased by Christ alone--as a free gift to all men.

2) Those who walk in the light(faith in Christ))--are Redeemed from their own personal sins--through the Blood of Christ:(by grace are ye saved)

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That "walk in the light" has integral components which make it up, IE--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, taking care of the poor, enduring to the end, following the Spirit, etc.(faith in Christ)

3) Our doing of those things which God commands--are righteous acts, and doing righteousness(walking in the light)--contributes to our personal righteousness:

1 John 3:7----King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

ziapueblo

Member
If Jesus' righteousness is credited to us, as our own---is the complete story---then why are all mankind judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 16:27----King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The scriptures do teach some things about the perfection process:

1) That God Redeemed all of mankind from the condemnation of the Fall, through His Atonement and Resurrection--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now--we answer for our own choices--and not Adam's choice--as John5:28-29 shows, although eternal life, as an opportunity for all men--was purchased by Christ alone--as a free gift to all men.

2) Those who walk in the light(faith in Christ))--are Redeemed from their own personal sins--through the Blood of Christ:(by grace are ye saved)

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That "walk in the light" has integral components which make it up, IE--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, taking care of the poor, enduring to the end, following the Spirit, etc.(faith in Christ)

3) Our doing of those things which God commands--are righteous acts, and doing righteousness(walking in the light)--contributes to our personal righteousness:

1 John 3:7----King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
We are called to cooperate with Christ, " . . . so faith apart from works is dead." as St. James writes in his epistle.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Imputation doctrine is the bunk of misguided idolators.

Believers do God's works and his works are not filthy rags. And that is how we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We deny ourselves and our works to do the works of God.
SO True- Most go out to do a work on impulse, mostly to impress other people, without the guidance of what God would have of man. Love, which God is in you, always does the work of it and its always good not driven by religious beliefs but the manifestation of God in you.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
If Jesus' righteousness is credited to us, as our own---is the complete story---then why are all mankind judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 16:27----King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The scriptures do teach some things about the perfection process:

1) That God Redeemed all of mankind from the condemnation of the Fall, through His Atonement and Resurrection--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now--we answer for our own choices--and not Adam's choice--as John5:28-29 shows, although eternal life, as an opportunity for all men--was purchased by Christ alone--as a free gift to all men.

2) Those who walk in the light(faith in Christ))--are Redeemed from their own personal sins--through the Blood of Christ:(by grace are ye saved)

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That "walk in the light" has integral components which make it up, IE--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, taking care of the poor, enduring to the end, following the Spirit, etc.(faith in Christ)

3) Our doing of those things which God commands--are righteous acts, and doing righteousness(walking in the light)--contributes to our personal righteousness:

1 John 3:7----King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
It isnt about having faith in Christ, it is about having the faith of Christ by the same anointing of God who was in Jesus to walk as He walks in it be in you .
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
SO True- Most go out to do a work on impulse, mostly to impress other people,

Yep. These would be the "I never knew you" crowd Jesus was talking about. They do as they please "in Jesus name" when Jesus had nothing to do with it.

without the guidance of what God would have of man. Love, which God is in you, always does the work of it and its always good not driven by religious beliefs but the manifestation of God in you.

Yep.
 

ziapueblo

Member
No, I just went to the last page and read the ending. ;)
Lol!

Of course I know you have read the text!

Philippians 2:12-13, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

It is clear to see that we work out our own salvation while it is God who works in us to do His will.
 

John t

Active member
Our Lord's God said:

Imputation doctrine is the bunk of misguided idolators.

This a doctrine of demons. It is contrary to fact and to Scripture. It (and others similar in message ) come from cultists, and do not represent Bible-based theology. Some are Oneness types, others are JW types. But NONE of them are born again, and NONE of them can exegete themselves away from this, what Scripture PLAINLY states:

Romans 4:​
9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.​
10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.​
11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,​
12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.​
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.​
20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,​
21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
ESV
 
Last edited:

Theo1689

Well-known member
If Jesus' righteousness is credited to us, as our own---is the complete story---then why are all mankind judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1) Why are you trying to "pit Scripture against Scripture"?

2) If it's okay to "pit Scripture against Scripture" (since you are doing it), why do you throw a hissy-fit when you think OTHERS are doing it?
 

John t

Active member
Yes, we are to cooperate. Very nicely put. No comment on the faith-works debate part if you were alluding that.

Unfortunately, that sort of sentiment is foreign to what the Bible teaches. To be more accurate instead of "politically correct", it is an outright heresy because it demeans God as Sovereign of the Universe, and concurrently, it elevates humanity to the level of God.

From where do you come up with this nonsense, since it is not a Bible-based doctrine?
 

e v e

Well-known member
Unfortunately, that sort of sentiment is foreign to what the Bible teaches. To be more accurate instead of "politically correct", it is an outright heresy because it demeans God as Sovereign of the Universe, and concurrently, it elevates humanity to the level of God.

From where do you come up with this nonsense, since it is not a Bible-based doctrine?
are you talking about cooperating with God? How does doing what God wants demean God as sovereign? I’m wondering if you replied to me by mistake?
 

John t

Active member
are you talking about cooperating with God? How does doing what God wants demean God as sovereign? I’m wondering if you replied to me by mistake?
No, you are correct to assume I was addressing you However, to be clear, I was not addressing the idea of "faith versus works" . Your comment about "cooperation" was so startling that I felt compelled to make my comments.

There is no concept in the Bible where we human, created beings as we are, can ever "cooperate with God". Since He is Sovereign of the Universe, and all therein, our choice is limited to either obey God, or disobey God.

The concept of "cooperation" is something that happens between equals, as I stated earlier. What God has done is to establish covenants with all us, and He is the Guarantor of all.

Covenant is a contract or agreement between two parties. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word _berith_ is always thus translated. _Berith_ is derived from a root which means "to cut," and hence a covenant is a "cutting," with reference to the cutting or dividing of animals into two parts, and the contracting parties passing between them, in making a covenant (Gen. 15; Jer. 34:18, 19). The corresponding word in the New Testament Greek is _diatheke_, which is, however, rendered "testament" generally in the KJV It ought to be rendered, just as the word _berith_ of the Old Testament, "covenant." This word is used (1) of a covenant or compact between man and man (Gen. 21:32), or between tribes or nations (1 Sam. 11:1; Josh. 9:6, 15​
from ISBE

In this covenant,​
(1.) The contracting parties were​
(a) God the moral Governor, and​
(b) Adam, a free moral agent, and representative of all his natural posterity (Rom. 5:12-19).​
(2.) The promise was "life" (Matt. 19:16, 17; Gal. 3:12).​
(3.) The condition was perfect obedience to the law, the test in this case being abstaining from eating the fruit of the "tree of knowledge," etc. (4.) The penalty was death (Gen. 2:16, 17). This covenant is also called a covenant of nature, as made with man in his natural or unfallen state; a covenant of life, because "life" was the promise attached to obedience; and a legal covenant, because it demanded perfect obedience to the law.​
The "tree of life" was the outward sign and seal of that life which was promised in the covenant, and hence it is usually called the seal of that covenant. This covenant is abrogated under the gospel, inasmuch as Christ has fulfilled all its conditions in behalf of his people, and now offers salvation on the condition of faith. It is still in force, however, as it rests on the immutable justice of God, and is binding on all who have not fled to Christ and accepted his righteousness.
From Eaton's

Because a covenant is imposed onto all humans, there cannot be any suggestion of cooperation.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Because a covenant is imposed onto all humans, there cannot be any suggestion of cooperation.
God wouldn't be much of God without man would He? He wouldn't even exist. God is Love and man is the temple of God. Love, Holy Love, or Holy Spirit as He is described in a bible.
 

e v e

Well-known member
No, you are correct to assume I was addressing you However, to be clear, I was not addressing the idea of "faith versus works" . Your comment about "cooperation" was so startling that I felt compelled to make my comments.

There is no concept in the Bible where we human, created beings as we are, can ever "cooperate with God". Since He is Sovereign of the Universe, and all therein, our choice is limited to either obey God, or disobey God.

The concept of "cooperation" is something that happens between equals, as I stated earlier. What God has done is to establish covenants with all us, and He is the Guarantor of all.

Covenant is a contract or agreement between two parties. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word _berith_ is always thus translated. _Berith_ is derived from a root which means "to cut," and hence a covenant is a "cutting," with reference to the cutting or dividing of animals into two parts, and the contracting parties passing between them, in making a covenant (Gen. 15; Jer. 34:18, 19). The corresponding word in the New Testament Greek is _diatheke_, which is, however, rendered "testament" generally in the KJV It ought to be rendered, just as the word _berith_ of the Old Testament, "covenant." This word is used (1) of a covenant or compact between man and man (Gen. 21:32), or between tribes or nations (1 Sam. 11:1; Josh. 9:6, 15​
from ISBE

In this covenant,​
(1.) The contracting parties were​
(a) God the moral Governor, and​
(b) Adam, a free moral agent, and representative of all his natural posterity (Rom. 5:12-19).​
(2.) The promise was "life" (Matt. 19:16, 17; Gal. 3:12).​
(3.) The condition was perfect obedience to the law, the test in this case being abstaining from eating the fruit of the "tree of knowledge," etc. (4.) The penalty was death (Gen. 2:16, 17). This covenant is also called a covenant of nature, as made with man in his natural or unfallen state; a covenant of life, because "life" was the promise attached to obedience; and a legal covenant, because it demanded perfect obedience to the law.​
The "tree of life" was the outward sign and seal of that life which was promised in the covenant, and hence it is usually called the seal of that covenant. This covenant is abrogated under the gospel, inasmuch as Christ has fulfilled all its conditions in behalf of his people, and now offers salvation on the condition of faith. It is still in force, however, as it rests on the immutable justice of God, and is binding on all who have not fled to Christ and accepted his righteousness.
From Eaton's

Because a covenant is imposed onto all humans, there cannot be any suggestion of cooperation.
Alright, you were addressing me... well that's no surprise, and as most of the forum agrees with you, even other heretics, though you simply addressed the item, and, without an ad hom. I have to leave me to Him John. The topic of heresy being a bit too big for me. Please know that when I posted, I was using a most basic understanding of the term, to mean listening to Him and doing what he says.

About the free choice topic... the context of what I said that you replied to, is that we can listen to him or not and to obey Him or not and by cooperate I didn't take your direction on that... since the scope of that is limited for us. God says to us to "have no other gods before me." I was not attempting to imply mortal man can ever be equal to Him, though some on the forum view themselves as equal, and even say they are as God. But that is not me. It's fresh in mind since today I was told I am not saved because I am "not like Him".

All that said... I don't believe His Souls are meant to be creatures or even that He likes these creature bodies (that we do have), since these were not of the beautiful nature lost when the fall, that beautiful nature being what He intended for man and not the current depravity of the Self and flesh. Adam was given dominion over the animals, so, he could decide things, such as what to name the animals! Of course that is not our current situation, for because of the fall we are all affected by the utter depravity of the self are are indeed as creatures, which is the sin nature we are to die to - Rom. 8:13, For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.) Adam disobeyed God and in doing so lost his estate... thinking he was the highest and by his actions acting on the own will and not God's will. He betrayed God. -- I'm thinking of Eph. 2:1–7, nasb,
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

In His new creation His saved sons will be restored to their estate (what Adam lost and will be back into His presence. In heaven, His Bride is not a creature.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. nasb, Rev. 20:4-6

Forgive me for citing only three lines... and really it's not needed since you already know all the lines applying to anything I've said by heart but to show scriptural basis of what I am responding, for other posters.
 
Last edited:

John t

Active member
E V E:
Since ad hominems are tacit admissions of losing a debate, (and I hate to lose debates ;)) I stay as far from them as I can. Therefore, my approach is to let the argumentation do the work of convincing.
All that said... I don't believe His Souls are meant to be creatures or even that He likes these creature bodies (that we do have), since these were not of the beautiful nature lost when the fall, that beautiful nature being what He intended for man and not the current depravity of the Self and flesh. Adam was given dominion over the animals, so, he could decide things, such as what to name the animals!
Please explain what you mean.

As I presently understand it, you seem to be saying that "God made a mistake when He created our bodies because that makes us creatures." Is that a correct understanding of what you wrote?

Because I am trained to think in theological terms, and to take statements such as yours to what I believe is the logical conclusion, your statement below:
I was using a most basic understanding of the term, to mean listening to Him and doing what he says.
causes me to believe that your usage of imprecise theological language causes great misunderstanding, not only from me, but from those who use ad hominems to "justify their confusion". And that is not an attack on you; rather, it is an explanation of why I react as I do. Very seriously, I take this, from my sig lines:
God did not stutter when He told the Scripture writers what to write.
 
Top