Obedience Required or Not Required?

zerinus

Well-known member
the short answer is no !
Too bad the Bible doesn't agree! :)
works are a result of salvation not a means to salvation as per Ephesians 2:8-10. Its the proof, evidence, fruit of salvation, the by product of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,
Why do the scriptures keep telling us to do the "works" then? Why all the emphasis on obedience, on repentance, and on keeping God's commandments? Why don't they just say, "Believe, and you are done!" Why don't they say, "Believe, and you don't need to worry about anything else; repenting, obedience, and keeping God’s commandments etc. is something that will just happen to you whether you like it or not after that."
hope this helps !!!
Too bad it doesn't! :)
but somehow I doubt that this TRUTH will help you.
Maybe that is because it ain't TRUTH!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Many were made righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5 19

9 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Your scriptures against mine! Who is to say that your scriptures are better than mine? Why not the other way? And I have a lot more of them than you do! :giggle:
 

civic

Well-known member
Too bad the Bible doesn't agree! :)

Why do the scriptures keep telling us to do the "works" then? Why all the emphasis on obedience, on repentance, and on keeping God's commandments? Why don't they just say, "Believe, and you are done!" Why don't they say,
"Believe, and you don't need to worry about anything else; repenting, obedience, and keeping God’s commandments etc. is something that will just happen to you whether you like it or not after that."

Too bad it doesn't! :)

Maybe that is because it ain't TRUTH!
Try reading this slowly with understanding ok ?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
By means of the obedience of the one man Jesus Christ we can become the righteousness of God in him (2 Cor 5:21). Without Jesus' death and resurrection, you would have no door to the righteousness of God. The door has been opened and those who DO what is righteous ARE righteous just as He is righteous, those who do the works of God rather than their own.
Thats false, that would entail they became righteous by two obedience's, and not one. So try reading it again Rom 5 19 how many obedience's and whose, made them righteous ?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Try reading this slowly with understanding ok ?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

hope this helps !!!

It apparently has not occurred to you that the question at hand is what one must to do be saved AFTER the Ephesians 2:8-10 event.

Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time apart from sin to save to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his works: 7 to those who patiently do good seeking glory, honor, and immortality: eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good.... 16 on the Day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Thats false, that would entail they became righteous by two obedience's, and not one. So try reading it again Rom 5 19 how many obedience's and whose, made them righteous ?

You didn't hear a word I said did you?

The many are made righteousness through the obedience of Christ, that is, through his cross we enter a new life where we can become righteous in him doing the good works of God which is the righteousness of God.

He who does what is righteous IS righteous just as he is righteous.

See your Bible rather than your personal desires.
 

civic

Well-known member
It apparently has not occurred to you that the question at hand is what one must to do be saved AFTER the Ephesians 2:8-10 event.

Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time apart from sin to save to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his works: 7 to those who patiently do good seeking glory, honor, and immortality: eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good.... 16 on the Day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2
Salvation - the new birth happens at a point in time just as our physical birth happens at a given point in time.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Try reading this slowly with understanding ok ?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

hope this helps !!!
Your scriptures against mine. Who is to say that your scriptures are better than mine? Why not the other way?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You didn't hear a word I said did you?

The many are made righteousness through the obedience of Christ, that is, through his cross we enter a new life where we can become righteous in him doing the good works of God which is the righteousness of God.

He who does what is righteous IS righteous just as he is righteous.

See your Bible rather than your personal desires.
I read what you wrote, and its error. Do you believe the many are made righteous by Christs obedience while they are unbelievers and dead in sin ? Yes or no
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I read what you wrote, and its error. Do you believe the many are made righteous by Christs obedience while they are unbelievers and dead in sin ? Yes or no

They aren't MADE anything until they die with Christ and are raised up with him. There is no righteousness of God outside of Christ. We become the righteousness of God IN HIM. He who DOES what is righteous IS righteous just as he is righteous. It's there in your Bible if you would read it instead of appealing to your personal desires.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
thats the problem I can harmonize the bible whereas you pit scripture against itself.
You are not harmonizing anything. You are basing your theology on a few isolated passages of scripture from one controversial author, while turning a blind eye to 99% of the rest of the Bible which do not agree with your interpretation. There is no harmonization in that.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
They aren't MADE anything until they die with Christ and are raised up with him. There is no righteousness of God outside of Christ. We become the righteousness of God IN HIM. He who DOES what is righteous IS righteous just as he is righteous. It's there in your Bible if you would read it instead of appealing to your personal desires.
See, you denied Rom 5 19. How were they made righteous according to that verse ?
 

civic

Well-known member
You are not harmonizing anything. You are basing your theology on a few isolated passages of scripture from one controversial author, while turning a blind eye to 99% of the rest of the Bible which do not as agree with your interpretation. There is no harmonization in that.
a controversial author lol.

sorry Paul was personally hand picked by Christ as an Apostle who wrote 1/2 of the NT books.

and more Fallacious arguments ?

and I can harmonize all of his writings with the gospels, Peter, James, John and the other N.T. writers.

there are NO CONTRADICTIONS between PAUL and the other authors in the N.T.

next.......................
 

zerinus

Well-known member
a controversial author lol.

sorry Paul was personally hand picked by Christ as an Apostle who wrote 1/2 of the NT books.
Except for this bit:

2 Peter 3:

16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

and more Fallacious arguments ?

and I can harmonize all of his writings with the gospels, Peter, James, John and the other N.T. writers.

there are NO CONTRADICTIONS between PAUL and the other authors in the N.T.
I agree there are no contradictions. The contradictions arise from your misreading of the text.
next.......................
I am waiting!
 
Last edited:
Top