Obeying the doctrine

John t

Member
Tom

They were reconciled to God while being enemies so yes they were reconciled to God at birth. That's the point. Now how was that? According to Rom 5:10?

There are some Arminians who fail to see, or refuse to see how God tells Paul to look beyond the present, and peer into eternity when he wrote this:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What is most important is that according to Greek grammar, the "if" is not a condition of probability, but a condition of fact because ALL have sinned, and have thus fallen short of the glory of God. In this matter, the "if" should be seen as if it were actually saying "since".

Therefore it is not our birth that saves us; rather, it is our ontological nature of being born according to the flesh, following Adam whereby we cannot do anything other than sin before our salvation. the Fall is universal, extending to all humanity.

OTOH election is sovereignly distributed, according to the mercy and unconditional love of Jesus from eternity to eternity. Those having a truncated and mangled "works righteousness" cannot see either the deserved completeness of our condemnation nor can they see the greatness of the unmerited love of Jesus towards us who believe.
 

TomFL

Active member
There are some Arminians who fail to see, or refuse to see how God tells Paul to look beyond the present, and peer into eternity when he wrote this:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What is most important is that according to Greek grammar, the "if" is not a condition of probability, but a condition of fact because ALL have sinned, and have thus fallen short of the glory of God. In this matter, the "if" should be seen as if it were actually saying "since".

Therefore it is not our birth that saves us; rather, it is our ontological nature of being born according to the flesh, following Adam whereby we cannot do anything other than sin before our salvation. the Fall is universal, extending to all humanity.

OTOH election is sovereignly distributed, according to the mercy and unconditional love of Jesus from eternity to eternity. Those having a truncated and mangled "works righteousness" cannot see either the deserved completeness of our condemnation nor can they see the greatness of the unmerited love of Jesus towards us who believe.
First I am not an Arminian

Second

The passage concerns those who were justified by faith

Rom. 5:1–10 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”


Those who are justified by faith have peace with God

Those in the passage were now justified

They have peace (reconciliation - restoration to favor removal of wrath thus peace) because of Christ's past act

Unbelievers opposed to God are not reconciled to God
 
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brightfame52

Active member
First I am not an Arminian

Second

The passage concerns those who were justified by faith

Rom. 5:1–10 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”


Those who are justified by faith have peace with God

Those in the passage were now justified

They have peace (reconciliation) because of Christ's past act

Unbelievers opposed to God are not reconciled to God
Nobody denies they were justified by Faith Rom 5:1 however they also reconciled to God while they were enemiesVs 10 and Justified by the Blood of Christ which had nothing to do with Faith but the Blood of Christ. You deny it to your peril
 

TomFL

Active member
Nobody denies they were justified by Faith Rom 5:1 however they also reconciled to God while they were enemiesVs 10 and Justified by the Blood of Christ which had nothing to do with Faith but the Blood of Christ. You deny it to your peril
Christ's past act was the basis of their reconciliation

They were however Justified now had peace now

again because of a past act but

What we have here is reconciliation provided and reconcilation applied

Unbelievers are not reconciled they are under wrath

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

brightfame52

Active member
Christ's past act was the basis of their reconciliation

They were however Justified now had peace now

again because of a past act but

What we have here is reconciliation provided and reconcilation applied

Unbelievers are not reconciled they are under wrath

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
No sir, Christ death reconciled them to God Rom 5:10, dont short change the death of Christ. Read the text !
 

TomFL

Active member
No sir, Christ death reconciled them to God Rom 5:10, dont short change the death of Christ. Read the text !
Sorry reconciliation brings peace

Rom. 5:1 —KJV
“¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

and peace results from justification which depends on faith

Unbelievers are under wrath thus not reconciled

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 
2John9
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

Why does one have to obey the doctrine of Christ in order to have the Father and Son?

How does that fit Reformed theology?
It is because Father and Son is a unified relationship and is God's oneness which is God is complete in himself and all are complete in God and God is complete in them. When one does not abide in the teachings of Christ they sever that Father and Son relationship which they participate in. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

TomFL

Active member
Tom



Not the unbelievers Christ died for, they're reconciled to God, under His Mercy and Grace while unbelieving enemies. Rom 5:10
Sorry John did not make exceptions

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

You are special pleading again
 

brightfame52

Active member
Sorry John did not make exceptions

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

You are special pleading again
You entitled to your opinion even though its erroneous
 

TomFL

Active member
You entitled to your opinion even though its erroneous
John did not err

and his opinion is God's opinion

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

brightfame52

Active member
John did not err

and his opinion is God's opinion

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Nobody said anything about John being in error
 

TomFL

Active member
Nobody said anything about John being in error
He would have to be in error if unbelievers were not under wrath

and you remove some unbelievers from wrath thus falsifying John's statement

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

brightfame52

Active member
He would have to be in error if unbelievers were not under wrath

and you remove some unbelievers from wrath thus falsifying John's statement

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Hes not talking about unbelievers Christ died for. They arent under wrath, the rest are
 

TomFL

Active member
Hes not talking about unbelievers Christ died for. They arent under wrath, the rest are
He does not offer exceptions

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

why do you add to his word?
 

brightfame52

Active member
He does not offer exceptions

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

why do you add to his word?
Thats just your opinion. The unbelievers Christ died for are reconciled to God while being unbelieving enemies. Rom 5:10
 

TomFL

Active member
Thats just your opinion. The unbelievers Christ died for are reconciled to God while being unbelieving enemies. Rom 5:10
No

That is the word of God

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

brightfame52

Active member
No

That is the word of God

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Both verses are the word of God, but your understanding isnt the word of God
 

TomFL

Active member
Both verses are the word of God, but your understanding isnt the word of God
The meaning is pretty obvious if you do not allow your theology to override the meaning

That is the word of God

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

the word some is just not in the verse
 
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