Obtaining definitions

Furion

Well-known member
Yeah....

I never did understand why the WTS/JW hated celebrating the arrivals of their children.
It seems that it takes a special kind of malice to want to not rejoice, and celebrate the arrival of a child into the world, and then to deliberately ignore reminding them of their value each year.

Back in the eighties I did battle with a JW.

His best reason he gave was because Israel didn't do birthdays, allegedly, and the pagans around them did.

That's some seriously idiotic "theology."

I was always sad that the dude pined to be an Israelite of some sort.

There is no sadder religion than one that pines for the covenant God ended, and fight against the new one He purchased.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Back in the eighties I did battle with a JW.

His best reason he gave was because Israel didn't do birthdays, allegedly, and the pagans around them did.

That's some seriously idiotic "theology."

I was always sad that the dude pined to be an Israelite of some sort.

There is no sadder religion than one that pines for the covenant God ended, and fight against the new one He purchased.
Yeah.... I'd agree.

As it's pretty clear that the primary attendees of Jesus' birthday were the angels, I have no problem whatsoever with celebrating Christmas.
Another curious element we have in the gospels is that there were the least among society whom the angels (Apparently they only obey God's command, so I'm guessing God was the one who actually invited them) thought it fitting to invite too. I.e., the Shepherds.....

We further see that the seekers were the wise men of the east. They too, after extensive inquiry into the meaning of the star's conjunctions, came to the party....

Then of course the parents.
then 8 days later, on his circumcision, Simeon, and Joanna show up to celebrate.

Considering further the idea that Jewish people didn't celebrate birthdays.... It's simply not mentioned in the bible.
Nor do I see anything that says the pagans did celebrate. So, this is an argument from silence, not statement...
 

Furion

Well-known member
Yeah.... I'd agree.

As it's pretty clear that the primary attendees of Jesus' birthday were the angels, I have no problem whatsoever with celebrating Christmas.
Another curious element we have in the gospels is that there were the least among society whom the angels (Apparently they only obey God's command, so I'm guessing God was the one who actually invited them) thought it fitting to invite too. I.e., the Shepherds.....

We further see that the seekers were the wise men of the east. They too, after extensive inquiry into the meaning of the star's conjunctions, came to the party....

Then of course the parents.
then 8 days later, on his circumcision, Simeon, and Joanna show up to celebrate.

Considering further the idea that Jewish people didn't celebrate birthdays.... It's simply not mentioned in the bible.
Nor do I see anything that says the pagans did celebrate. So, this is an argument from silence, not statement...

Christians will do themselves a favor by not worrying over what the scriptures do not expressly forbid, imo.

That's not how men roll though.

Like a a Gentile, they need to lord something over someone. So they become legalists, picking and choosing what they will allow and forbid.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Christians will do themselves a favor by not worrying over what the scriptures do not expressly forbid, imo.

That's not how men roll though.

Like a a Gentile, they need to lord something over someone. So they become legalists, picking and choosing what they will allow and forbid.
Well, there are a few passages that would affirm the idea of "majoring in the majors, minoring in the minors, and in all things, grace, charity/love."

Romans 14, Colossians 2, 1 Corinthians 6, 8, 10, and Titus 1:15.

If the angels weren't actually the ones who instigated the celebration of the birth of Jesus, I'd likely have a different view.

But they were clearly celebrating. They were so excited about it they appeared to the shepherds and began singing an hallelujah song.
This gave a whole new level (raised the bar) of excitement for football fans on the winning touchdown in the superbowl game! 🤷🏽‍♂️🤭
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Ok.
This is indeed an impressive collection of articles and resources for the writings of ancient ideas....

With references supporting my claim by the Bible as well as mainstream Christian and secular sources.

Since you clearly don't want to actually learn anything that doesn't agree with your above documentation,

I don't want to argue these for two reasons. 1. I already have many, many times and it was a waste of time. NOBODY learned anything. And 2. I don't need to. It's painfully obvious I'm right. I suggested you provide a similar closing argument to the contrary and leave it to the discretion of the reader. Anyone not already indoctrinated, should they stumble upon the two would probably have no interest or opinion on the subject. If you think you do this for God or to teach and help people by defending God's word you might want to rethink that.

I'll simply state that all of these statements, and documents, ideas, etc....

They remind me of what Jesus quoted out of Isaiah 29

Isa 29:13-14 WEB 13 The Lord said, “Because this people draws near with their mouth and honors me with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which has been taught; 14 therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the understanding of their prudent men will be hidden.”

There it is. The misapplied scripture you suppose to justify your position. Who has removed? The one teaching the Bible or the one teaching the pagan nonsense that was taught by the pagans prior to the Bible?

It's curious

And there that is. Your long diatribes have only two methods. It's curious . . . It's interesting . . . since you always disagree with me why is it you always find it curious or interesting? Why not grow the sack to say I'm lying? It seems less hypocritical and disingenuous.

how you provide Greek, Babylonian, and other cultures beliefs regarding the eternal, and completely disregard the bible and its descriptions for each item.

Congratulations !

You have epitomized what Isaiah and Jesus said.

You've become so utterly entrenched in the teachings and doctrines of men that you have completely missed Jesus.

The concept of the immortal soul comes from Samaria, Babylon and Greece. It was eventually introduced into apostate Jewish and Christian theology directly through the influence of Greek philosophy, especially Plato. Through Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and Constantine the Great in 325 CE respectively.

The Bible, as I quoted, clearly states the soul dies and can be destroyed. (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28)

Stop fumbling about, you look silly.

I said I didn't want to debate it. You and anyone else can of course, I can't stop you. But who would? The atheists? They only argue against the Christian perspective and that . . . is apostate. Not only are you mislead, but you mislead. The blind leading the blind.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
With references supporting my claim by the Bible as well as mainstream Christian and secular sources.
Yet they don't actually support the truth.

I don't want to argue these for two reasons.
I don't argue.
You however are simply telling me that you don't actually want people to understand. You just demand that they accept what you want them to think.
That's not a godly practice.

1. I already have many, many times and it was a waste of time.
Seems pretty clear I wasn't involved in whatever those times were.
NOBODY learned anything.
Sounds like you never actually understood what the goal was.

2. I don't need to. It's painfully obvious I'm right.
Well, this just tells me that you are a legend in your own mind.
What's curious is that you are convinced that just as long as you're satisfied, you don't need to explain anything, so others can understand what you're talking about.
So, using your own words....
It's painfully obvious to me that your beliefs are seriously wrong, based entirely on erroneous beliefs and tied to previously debunked and disproven dogma.
Making your materials, dogmatically held beliefs.
I suggested you provide a similar closing argument to the contrary and leave it to the discretion of the reader.
Metanoia, and believe the gospel of Jesus.
My points are stated above.

Anyone not already indoctrinated, should they stumble upon the two would probably have no interest or opinion on the subject.
So, you think that the only way to know what you think is true, is to be a totally unaware, and unfamiliar with any truth, at all?
This is a curiosity.
Because Paul explicitly stated that we're to examine ALL things, to cling to the good and abhor the evil.
We then read in Acts 17:11 that it's nobel to search the scriptures daily to determine if the things people are proclaiming are true or not.
Then, in Proverbs 3:5-6, we're further instructed to not lean on our own understanding, but to trust YHVH with all our hearts and acknowledge him in all our ways, and he will direct our paths.
We then read in Matthew 6:33 that by seeking first God's Kingdom and his righteousness, everything we need will be provided to us by God himself.


I find it quite interesting that you actually think that truth cannot be verified by anyone who has experience and awareness of any other ideas.

Such a mentality would mean that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, jehovah's witnesses, mormons, Jews or any other people throughout the world would not be able to be saved, according to you.

Thankfully, YHVH says otherwise.

We read in Hebrews 7:25 that God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

We further read in Deuteronomy 30 that the Israeli people were given the truth, and then told--
I have set before you life and death, choose life that you and your descendants may remain in the land and live.

Considering they'd been indoctrinated in Egyptian culture and beliefs, and had been cow worshippers, I'd say they were pretty indoctrinated by Egypt.
Yet they were actually able to learn the truth regarding YHVH and life.


If you think you do this for God or to teach and help people by defending God's word you might want to rethink that.
I don't need to. YHVH clearly stated that his word will achieve the purpose for which he gave it. My thoughts on the matter are utterly irrelevant to anyone else.

What's completely relevant is that YHVH's Word is alive and powerful. It's a two-edged sword of surpassing sharpness. It's so sharp that it is capable of separating out soul and spirit, bone and marrow, mind and heart.


There it is. The misapplied scripture you suppose to justify your position.
Yet you have nothing but your unsupported opinion to back this up.
So, there it is indeed! You reject the truth because it opposes your deception, yet have nothing to say why.
Who has removed?
You have removed your heart far from him. Exactly as the scripture states. Exactly as Jesus said too.

The one teaching the Bible or the one teaching the pagan nonsense that was taught by the pagans prior to the Bible?
You.
And there that is. Your long diatribes have only two methods. It's curious . . . It's interesting . . .
Not really sure why you'd have a problem with this.
Especially when you keep making it clear that the bible can't actually be true, that I am not actually allowed to correctly quote, reference or provide an accurate application for the bible to your beliefs.
I'd expect that if your beliefs were valid and genuine, you'd be falling all over yourself to explain them rather clearly.
But instead....
You're claiming that you'd have to argue, instead of simply explaining the answers to the questions I've asked you.

The fact that I started an OP, dedicated entirely to your beliefs, and then dropped a group of questions, and have given you plenty of time to respond should demonstrate that I'm not interested in arguing.

I simply want an explanation, and then the items I have further questions about, ask, and you answer.


since you always disagree with me why is it you always find it curious or interesting?
Pretty basic.
I find myself curious why people would believe things about the bible which the bible doesn't actually say.
For example, the cross being a phallic symbol, when it's quite clear that Jesus died on a Roman cross.
I mentioned it to the men's group I'm in last week and one guy responded with a-huh? I've never heard that before. Others looked at me and laughed at the idea. One guy grew up in jehovah's witnesses home as an orphan and just shook his head.

Why not grow the sack to say I'm lying? It seems less hypocritical and disingenuous.



The concept of the immortal soul comes from Samaria, Babylon and Greece. It was eventually introduced into apostate Jewish and Christian theology directly through the influence of Greek philosophy, especially Plato. Through Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and Constantine the Great in 325 CE respectively.

The Bible, as I quoted, clearly states the soul dies and can be destroyed. (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28)
Which is curious, because there are plenty of other places where Jesus talks about eternal suffering and misery, and agony.
This should raise the question to you about what death of the soul is.
In Ecclesiastes 12 we read that the body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So, there's more than just a soul.
We read further still in Ezekiel 36 that God will give us a new heart of flesh and a new spirit.
This tells me that there's more than just a soul to the human being.
Paul too states that there's a spirit, soul and body.



Stop fumbling about, you look silly.
Seems to me that you don't actually want others to understand what you believe and why.

I said I didn't want to debate it.
I'm not debating.
All I've asked is that you answer my questions.
It's not a debate. It's simply answering questions.

You and anyone else can of course, I can't stop you. But who would? The atheists? They only argue against the Christian perspective and that . . . is apostate. Not only are you mislead, but you mislead. The blind leading the blind.
So, biblical christianity is apostate?
Sounds like you're trying to start a new religion.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Yet they don't actually support the truth.

Seriously. You and @stiggy wiggy need to either step up your game or see if you can get someone in here that can make an interesting argument.

I don't argue.

Yes you do.

You however are simply telling me that you don't actually want people to understand. You just demand that they accept what you want them to think.
That's not a godly practice.

No, I don't think anyone learns from it. It isn't that they couldn't. They won't.

Seems pretty clear I wasn't involved in whatever those times were.

Sounds like you never actually understood what the goal was.

The goal for me at the time was to get as wasted on 100 proof alcohol and weed while unmercifully mocking atheists.

Well, this just tells me that you are a legend in your own mind.

While you are the very definition of humility! A real God fearing, peace loving, man of the people.

What's curious is that you are convinced that just as long as you're satisfied, you don't need to explain anything, so others can understand what you're talking about.

Look. Dude. Debate the post or get off the pot.

So, using your own words....
It's painfully obvious to me that your beliefs are seriously wrong, based entirely on erroneous beliefs and tied to previously debunked and disproven dogma.
Making your materials, dogmatically held beliefs.

Metanoia, and believe the gospel of Jesus.
My points are stated above.


So, you think that the only way to know what you think is true, is to be a totally unaware, and unfamiliar with any truth, at all?
This is a curiosity.

I'll wait. Really. Get someone who knows what they are talking about to help you.

Because Paul explicitly stated that we're to examine ALL things, to cling to the good and abhor the evil.

We then read in Acts 17:11 that it's nobel to search the scriptures daily to determine if the things people are proclaiming are true or not.
Then, in Proverbs 3:5-6, we're further instructed to not lean on our own understanding, but to trust YHVH with all our hearts and acknowledge him in all our ways, and he will direct our paths.
We then read in Matthew 6:33 that by seeking first God's Kingdom and his righteousness, everything we need will be provided to us by God himself.

Am I to understand these apply to you? Then get busy and show me where I'm wrong in the post on immortal soul.

I find it quite interesting that you actually think that truth cannot be verified by anyone who has experience and awareness of any other ideas.

I'd like to think they could try.

Such a mentality would mean that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, jehovah's witnesses, mormons, Jews or any other people throughout the world would not be able to be saved, according to you.

Even apostate Christians?!

Thankfully, YHVH says otherwise.

Can't even say his name.

We read in Hebrews 7:25 that God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

We further read in Deuteronomy 30 that the Israeli people were given the truth, and then told--
I have set before you life and death, choose life that you and your descendants may remain in the land and live.

Considering they'd been indoctrinated in Egyptian culture and beliefs, and had been cow worshippers, I'd say they were pretty indoctrinated by Egypt.
Yet they were actually able to learn the truth regarding YHVH and life.

Incidentally, the truth they learned didn't include the immortal soul. Remember that? You're wasting everyone's time and I'm not going to help you do that. You need to step it up. Stick to the facts.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Seriously. You and @stiggy wiggy need to either step up your game or see if you can get someone in here that can make an interesting argument.

As opposed to one based on the truth of things? My, your ears are itchy. How about a bubbly theology delivered by dancing angels in tights about sugar plum fairies dying to atone for the sins of yaks?
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
As opposed to one based on the truth of things? My, your ears are itchy. How about a bubbly theology delivered by dancing angels in tights about sugar plum fairies dying to atone for the sins of yaks?

Well, I mean I don't know, Stigster, the one you have is bad enough, don't you think?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Seriously. You and @stiggy wiggy need to either step up your game or see if you can get someone in here that can make an interesting argument.
😳🙄🤣
There is no debate here.
I am just asking questions about your beliefs.

Furthermore, you're the one who said you had no interest in debating.
So. Instead of playing games, how about simply answering my questions in a simple straightforward manner.

Yes you do.
No. Actually.... I simply state what's written in the bible and then where I think description is warranted, I explain.

No, I don't think anyone learns from it. It isn't that they couldn't. They won't.
I won't disagree with that one. But as I opened up this thread a couple weeks ago and you're not actually answering questions, then you tell me you're not going to do so, and then gripe that I'm not debating..... these things are all tactics to dismiss culpability for your beliefs and akin to simply throwing sand in the air to obscure and obfuscate your refusal to explain and describe your beliefs.
The goal for me at the time was to get as wasted on 100 proof alcohol and weed while unmercifully mocking atheists.
Ah. That would explain.
While you are the very definition of humility! A real God fearing, peace loving, man of the people.
Sounds like you haven't stopped the mockery.
Look. Dude. Debate the post or get off the pot.
This thread isn't a debate. It's a collection of questions about your beliefs.

I'll wait. Really. Get someone who knows what they are talking about to help you.
I simply asked you a series of questions about your beliefs. Is this your way of saying that you don't actually want anyone to know what you're talking about?

Am I to understand these apply to you? Then get busy and show me where I'm wrong in the post on immortal soul.
I asked you to define the difference between your idea of the immortal soul and the eternal spirit.

I'd like to think they could try.
I'd agree, but your clear refusal to actually describe your beliefs demonstrates that you don't actually want them to.
Even apostate Christians?!
What is an apostate Christian?
How do you determine if they're apostate?
Can't even say his name.
Why not?
It's the name he's given to us for himself. The 4 letters are scattered throughout the entire Hebrew bible.
A basic search shows me 7825 instances.


Incidentally, the truth they learned didn't include the immortal soul. Remember that? You're wasting everyone's time and I'm not going to help you do that. You need to step it up. Stick to the facts.
Then Jesus didn't actually offer his followers eternal life?
 

Furion

Well-known member
We atheists and skeptics have been telling you this for more than a decade now, Steve,

It's good that you've finally come around to our way of thinking.

Oh Mikey, now you know your burning desire to hate on God and Christians cannot be satisfied, it's why you are here.

While you "don't argue", God's word goes forth and you can't stop it.

I think maybe you need to amplify your voice somehow, so everyone can here it.

Otherwise people will believe God over your not arguing.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
We atheists and skeptics have been telling you this for more than a decade now, Steve,

It's good that you've finally come around to our way of thinking.
:ROFLMAO:
Pity you guys keep at it.

It's a simple invitation to come follow Jesus.

Relationships aren't debatable. You either engage in them or you don't.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What is different between your two reasons you say you don't argue and most everything else you post?
There is none. He simply refuses to explain his beliefs to us, so we can better understand.
🤷‍♂️:rolleyes:
 
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