OK critics--here is your opportunity

Janice Bower

Well-known member
The problem with that is the scriptures testify the Atonement was for every and all men:

Mormonism teaches that the atonement is only an opportunity; full salvation requires Mormons to obey ALL the laws and ordinances of Mormonism.
Mormons are required to proxy work for the dead.
During the final months of his life, the Prophet Joseph Smith reflected frequently regarding the importance of vicarious ordinances for the dead.[1] In fact, he considered work for our ancestors to be so important that he taught “their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation . . . they without us cannot be made perfect – neither can we without our dead be made perfect.”[2]

[1] Doctrine and Covenants 128:1
[2] Doctrine and Covenants 128:15
 

dberrie2020

Super Member
Mormonism teaches that the atonement is only an opportunity;

The LDS believe Jesus Christ delivered all men from the condemnation of the Fall--as a reality, and was a free gift to all men--called the Redemption--which redeemed all men from the Fall.

That provided for all men to born saved--and His Blood, unto the forgiveness of sins--to all who would walk in His light.

full salvation requires Mormons to obey ALL the laws and ordinances of Mormonism.

Such as this?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So--is that a partial obedience--or a full obedience?
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Not exactly.

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (Joseph Smith-Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

"Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmadge, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
The problem with that is the scriptures testify the Atonement was for every and all men:

1 Timothy 2:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Literally, none of these verses say the atonement was applied to all men, only that Christ is the only propitiation for sin.
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Then why are all men judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Too bad you didn't read the whole thing. Had you done so, rather than just parroting talking points, you would have seen that the previous verses said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

So, here, we see that it's not works that save, but hearing the Word and trusting in God. Please pay special attention to the part that says, "He does not come into judgment".
Salvation, as one receiving eternal life--isn't universal in the LDS church.
"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (Joseph Smith-Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

"Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmadge, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).
Then why was the gospel taught to the dead?

1 Peter 4:6---King James Version
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Again, it helps if you read the whole thing. To the Old Testament Jews, Christ was the promised Messiah. In this verse, Peter is referencing Christ's descent into Hell to preach the completed work of atonement to those faithful Jews of the Old Testament who kept the law awaiting its fulfilment in Christ.
Are you claiming those who have never heard the gospel--won't be given an opportunity to hear and accept or reject?
After death? No, there are no "second chances" after death. It is appointed once for man to die and then to be judged.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (Joseph Smith-Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

"Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmadge, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).
All non-LDS and non-valiant LDS will have to pay for their sins in a temporary hell in the spirit world. I was under the impression that "outer darkness" was separate: a destination or permanent assignment for those who actually knew the so-called truth of Mormonism and rejected it including the devil and his angels. However, I don't find evidence in my research whether or not temporary hell is a temporary time in Outer Darkness.

When Joseph Fielding Smith used the word hell was he referring to those who would eventually go to the Telestial Kingdom or was he referring to Outer Darkness?

Every human is said to be redeemed (Mormon teaching) from physical death. Resurrection is considered redemption but not all resurrected beings spend eternity as sons and daughters of Jesus in the Church of the Firstborn.

Joseph Fielding Smith was the tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the grandson of Hyrum Smith brother of Joseph Smith, Jr..

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40–41

Redemption is of two kinds: conditional and unconditional. Conditional redemption is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life. It comes by the grace of God coupled with good works and includes redemption from the effects of both the temporal and spiritual fall. Those so redeemed become sons and daughters in the Lord's kingdom and inherit all things. And this is the chief sense in which the term redemption is used in the scriptures.
Mormon Doctrine, p. 623

also Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, pp. 9-13

There are more details in the book.

All people are redeemed from physical death regardless of their desire or objection. But redemption from the second death is conditional and must be earned/merited.
 
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dberrie2020

Super Member
Literally, none of these verses say the atonement was applied to all men, only that Christ is the only propitiation for sin.

The scriptures bear testimony the Atonement was a free gift to all men, and justified all men of life:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"came upon"--past tense. IOW--all men have been absolved of the condemnation of the Fall, which befell to all men, and now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life--through Christ's Atonement.
 

dberrie2020

Super Member
Too bad you didn't read the whole thing. Had you done so, rather than just parroting talking points, you would have seen that the previous verses said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

The "judgment" there is a reference to "condemnation"--

John 5:24---King James Version
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

IOW--those who have faith in Christ, won't be in this resurrection:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All will be judged according to works--even Christians:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 

dberrie2020

Super Member
So, here, we see that it's not works that save, but hearing the Word and trusting in God.

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--it's God's grace which saves, not works nor hearing the Word.

"Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmadge, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

How is that any different than what the scriptures testify to?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).

Again, it helps if you read the whole thing. To the Old Testament Jews, Christ was the promised Messiah. In this verse, Peter is referencing Christ's descent into Hell to preach the completed work of atonement to those faithful Jews of the Old Testament who kept the law awaiting its fulfilment in Christ.

After death? No, there are no "second chances" after death. It is appointed once for man to die and then to be judged.

There are those who never had the first chance. What about those? What about little babies who died in infancy?
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Readers, try to get a copy of Mormon Doctrine as it has a vast amount of information that I am unable to type.

The Telestial Kingdom
"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).

The Telestial Kingdom is the lowest "kingdom of glory" per Mormonism.

Following the judgment, those who come from outer darkness and were deemed not worthy enough for entrance into the telestial kingdom will be returned. McConkie taught:The great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 350).

Who will go to hell? This query is abundantly answered in scriptures. Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual and devilish---those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, (D.&C. 76:103), false swearers, "those that oppress the hireling in his wages," the proud, "and all that do wickedly." (Mal. 3; 4; 2 Ne. 9:27-39; 26:10.)

Several specific groups of wicked persons are singled out to receive the prophetic curse that their destination is the fires of hell. "The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God," David proclaimed. (Ps. 9:17.) Sex sin is rewarded with the torments of hell. (2 Ne. 9:36; Prov. 7:6-27.)

(Mormon Doctrine, p. 350)
 

dberrie2020

Super Member
Readers, try to get a copy of Mormon Doctrine as it has a vast amount of information that I am unable to type.

Reading one's own Bible will give a vast amount of information.

So, Janice--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Com'on Janice--if the LDS are so far off track--then you won't have any trouble giving us a page or two of examples.

So far--crickets.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
The biblical Gospel is easily explained. It appears neither you nor he are capable.
Easily explained? by what means do you interpret the Bible? Is the Bible infallible? and who say and can prove its foolproof, are you the man who has been authorized to translate the actual Greek and Hebrew writings? Doubt it....
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--it's God's grace which saves, not works nor hearing the Word.
Actually, Mormonism doesn't teach that grace saves. It's grace + works, which nullifies the grace.
How is that any different than what the scriptures testify to?
It's very different because scripture never says all men are saved.
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
First, as usual, you dishonestly quote Bible verses out of context. That's not even remotely the whole thing.

Second, Paul is contrasting Adam and Christ. He is saying that Christ is the propitiation for sin for all men, not that all men will partake it it or be saved.
There are those who never had the first chance. What about those?
Then God did not elect them to salvation.
What about little babies who died in infancy?
They go to Heaven.
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Easily explained? by what means do you interpret the Bible? Is the Bible infallible? and who say and can prove its foolproof, are you the man who has been authorized to translate the actual Greek and Hebrew writings? Doubt it....
Explain the Gospel, Ralf instead of going off on tangents. Can you explain it? Dberrie can't.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Explain the Gospel, Ralf instead of going off on tangents. Can you explain it? Dberrie can't.
Yep, its been translated to the best of man's ability to do so.... only a man who is filled with the spirit of inspiration can either write or interpret scripture. You my friend are not authorized or called to do so.... Of course the BoM was translated by only one man with the gift and power of God... it works, but you fail to acknowledge the process...
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Yep, its been translated to the best of man's ability to do so.... only a man who is filled with the spirit of inspiration can either write or interpret scripture. You my friend are not authorized or called to do so.... Of course the BoM was translated by only one man with the gift and power of God... it works, but you fail to acknowledge the process...
Again, a failure to actually address the point I made. Did you not comprehend what I wrote? It had nothing to do with what you posted.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Again, a failure to actually address the point I made. Did you not comprehend what I wrote? It had nothing to do with what you posted.
I don't have to, your post have no to little concept of Gospel Doctrine. I would warn all who follow you to step carefully for the man is a stranger to the Gospel of Christ.
 

dberrie2020

Super Member
Actually, Mormonism doesn't teach that grace saves.

That just isn't true. It's by God's grace anyone will obtain eternal life.

It's grace + works, which nullifies the grace.

So--was God's grace nullified here?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

First, as usual, you dishonestly quote Bible verses out of context. That's not even remotely the whole thing.

That's seems to be the usual claim of those whose theology is violated by the scriptures, IMO.

Second, Paul is contrasting Adam and Christ. He is saying that Christ is the propitiation for sin for all men, not that all men will partake it it or be saved.

I've never made any claim all men will be saved unto life. All men are absolved of the condemnation of the Fall--and thereby, all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life, as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's referred to as the Redemption.
 
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