On Obstinacy in Belief

When you say "All was accomplished by Christ on the cross" why did the world go on, for the most part without even noticing? Why are there still demons tempting people to evil, if all has been accomplished? What exactly changed when everything was accomplished?
Have you heard about the kingdom of God being referred to as "already and not yet"?.

This theological concept of "already" and "not yet" was proposed by Princeton theologian Gerhardus Vos early in the 20th century, who believed that we live in the present age, the 'now', and await the 'age to come'.

 
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Have you heard about the kingdom of God being referred to as "already and not yet"?.

I first ran across this enlightening concept by reading Oscar Cullman. Here's a little summary from:


Cullmann's analogy is a stirring one because he compares the position of the disciple of Jesus with that of a person living between D-Day (June 1944) and V-Day (Spring 1945) during World War II. D-Day was when the allied troops invaded Europe and began to push the German army back to Germany, while V-Day was when they actually claimed victory:

The decisive battle in a war may already have occurred in a relatively early stage of the war, and yet the war still continues. Although the decisive effect of that battle is perhaps not recognized by all, it nevertheless already means victory. But the war must still be carried on for an undefined time, until "Victory Day." Precisely this is the situation of which the New Testament is conscious, as a result of the recognition of the new division of time; the revelation consists precisely in the fact of the proclamation that that event on the cross, together with the resurrection which followed, was the already concluded decisive battle.

Scripture clearly teaches this perspective: Christ has already won the victory (1 Cor. 15:1ff.; Eph. 1:15ff.; Col. 2:15; and Heb. 2:14ff.). The crucial battle has been fought and won in the incarnation and the resurrection. The cease-fire is yet future. Jesus' followers continue to fight against the principalities and powers (Eph. 6:10ff.) until he comes again to bring about the final end of the war. We do not know how long the warfare will continue. As we battle the forces of evil, we also witness in the shadow of Christ's victory on the cross and his ultimate victory to be achieved at the final coming. We fight with the conviction that someday all weapons will be placed at the feet of Jesus. This concept should encourage all believers. It can also exhort all to be faithful to Jesus and his cause.

There is an additional emphasis offered by Cullmann that can help us understand the nature of the Christian life and the place of Revelation in scriptural context. He believes that we live in the overlap of two ages, this present age and the age to come. We already live in the new age, and yet we do not fully live in the new age since Christ's final coming has not yet occurred. He writes:

The new element in the New Testament is not eschatology, but what I call the tension between the decisive 'already fulfilled' and the 'not yet completed,' between present and future. The whole theology of the New Testament, including Jesus' preaching, is qualified by this tension.

D-Day is past; V-Day is in the future. Meanwhile, we who follow Christ live "between the times." We know that Christ is Victor and Deliverer now, but we also know that there is more to come. This fits in with the definition of "eschatology" and a proper understanding of "the last days." The biblical notion of eschatology embraces both an "inaugurated" emphasis (we are already in the Kingdom and enjoy blessings as disciples of Jesus) and a "future" accent (we await future events like the final coming, the resurrection, the Final Judgment, the new heaven and new earth, and so forth).

I am reminded of the cartoon depicting a person walking around the city, carrying a sign that reads "The End is Near!" According to Scripture, there should be three characters carrying signs. Their messages would communicate Scripture's testimony: The End has come! The End is near! The End has not come! We live confidently with this tension between what we already enjoy and what we do not yet possess, all with the sense of expectancy that the end is always near.
 
Have you heard about the kingdom of God being referred to as "already and not yet"?.

This theological concept of "already" and "not yet" was proposed by Princeton theologian Gerhardus Vos early in the 20th century, who believed that we live in the present age, the 'now', and await the 'age to come'.

To use the article WW2 analogy, all things were not accomplished after D-Day. It was a vital step in the right direction, but there was a huge amount that remained to be accomplished before V-Day.

As the article says:

"The destructive Powers still reign. Though Christ in principle defeated death, we nevertheless continue to die. V-Day still lies in the future."

Clearly there are things that remain to be accomplished.
 
To use the article WW2 analogy, all things were not accomplished after D-Day. It was a vital step in the right direction, but there was a huge amount that remained to be accomplished before V-Day.

As the article says:

"The destructive Powers still reign. Though Christ in principle defeated death, we nevertheless continue to die. V-Day still lies in the future."

Clearly there are things that remain to be accomplished.
I was surprised that Boyd began his introduction saying similar things that you did. Yes, some things remain to be accomplished but we can live confidently knowing that the victory is complete.
 
I was surprised that Boyd began his introduction saying similar things that you did. Yes, some things remain to be accomplished but we can live confidently knowing that the victory is complete.

It's like a big banquet for which the exquisite food has already been cooked and seasoned, and placed on the finest dinnerware, awaiting in the kitchen to be served as soon as all the invitations have gone out and been received. But the omniscient Master Chef knows that the cuisine's necessary cooling off time and the time allotted for the invitation to still have appeal is perfectly matched. Ungrateful derelicts who wish to cause trouble remain in the banquet room, but He will have them summarily removed. In the meantime to obviate their removal, He offers the invitation to them as well.
 
He doesn't know the Bible. He only knows his talking points. It is obvious to me simply by his questions and by talking to him, Just like your comment about who's words are more weighty does not make sense if you believe that all scripture is inspired by God.

Consider this verse from Hebrews 8:13---- In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

The old covenant, the law of Moses, was made obsolete because of the new covenant. To really understand it you should read about it. I find arguing about it useless with those who don't know the Bible because they seem unable to be swayed from their talking point in which they are trying to poke holes at something they think is a serious contradiction, when we know it is not.

Tradition. If anyone is keeping the law of Moses it is because it is a tradition but it won't save them and they know that. The Christians you should ask this question to are Messianic Jews. They are current day Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ.
Knowing the Bible and agreeing with your interpretation or your presuppositions are two different things.
Did the apostles keep the Law simply out of tradition?
Have Messianic Jews given up on the Law? Why are they better placed than anyone else to answer the questions? Do they believe that Jesus was God or just that he was the expected messiah?
 
Did the apostles keep the Law simply out of tradition?

Paul did on occasion so as not to offend the "weaker brethren." But from his epistle to the Galatians we see that he was not real keen on the idea, particularly as a requirement for anything.
 
I was surprised that Boyd began his introduction saying similar things that you did. Yes, some things remain to be accomplished but we can live confidently knowing that the victory is complete.
If some things remain to be accomplished, then clearly nothing has disappeared from the law, if Jesus is right.

Mat 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
If some things remain to be accomplished, then clearly nothing has disappeared from the law, if Jesus is right.

Mat 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
The things that are left to be accomplished don't have to do with the law. The Law (the old covenant) was done away with when Jesus fulfilled it on the cross and instituted a new covenant with his blood. Let it go.
 
The things that are left to be accomplished don't have to do with the law. The Law (the old covenant) was done away with when Jesus fulfilled it on the cross and instituted a new covenant with his blood.
It does not say all things that relate to the law, it says everything.

Let it go.
Does it not worry you that it is possible the church has corrupted Jesus' words? To me, one of the biggest arguments against Christianity is how it has diverged from what Jesus actually said. I seem to recall you reject the trinity, so perhaps you do get that to some degree.
 
It does not say all things that relate to the law, it says everything.
Everything having to do with the law (the old covenant) has been accomplished and the law is no longer in effect. Eph 2: 14-16, Heb 8:6-13
Does it not worry you that it is possible the church has corrupted Jesus' words? To me, one of the biggest arguments against Christianity is how it has diverged from what Jesus actually said. I seem to recall you reject the trinity, so perhaps you do get that to some degree.
There has always been wolves in sheep's clothing who have tried to bring false doctrine into the church. It is written about in Acts and all of the epistles. Jesus warned his disciples that it would happen. Being linked closely with governments is the worse thing that could have happened to the church.
 
Everything having to do with the law (the old covenant) has been accomplished and the law is no longer in effect. Eph 2: 14-16, Heb 8:6-13

There has always been wolves in sheep's clothing who have tried to bring false doctrine into the church. It is written about in Acts and all of the epistles. Jesus warned his disciples that it would happen. Being linked closely with governments is the worse thing that could have happened to the church.
False doctrine started with Paul.
 
Jesus was a Jew. His focus was on freeing Jews from the priestly class's imposition of rules and rituals that were not scriptural.
Paul came along and turned it into something else.
Are you supposedly getting this from the Bible? Can you show me where?
 
Jesus was a Jew. His focus was on freeing Jews from the priestly class's imposition of rules and rituals that were not scriptural.
Paul came along and turned it into something else.
Nope. Paul wrote about a moral consciousness rising in humans which he called Joshua (meaning salvation), according to the types perceived by him and his community in Hebrew scripture.

Subsequently, later members of his community wrote esoteric stories, ie, the Gospels, personifying the inner Jesus of Paul in the genre of revelatory discourse.

Next, (second century CE) orthodoxy taught those esoteric stories as historical events.

Consequently, everyone erroneously reads into (eisegesis), adds to, Paul’s explanations in his epistles the immersive, fictional, mythical stories found in the Gospels.

For example, where Paul says (1 cor 15) he and the apostles perceived the dying and rising cosmic Christ according to scripture (note: nothing about a reassembled human corpse), everyone else goes, OMG! Paul saw a reassembled corpse! Because that is what the Gospels declare. It is a giant, worldwide self delusion erroneously promoted by orthodoxy to make everyone believe that Paul actually saw with his eyeballs a reassembled human corpse! The lie has been told for so long that nobody dares doubt or question it.
 
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Nope. Paul wrote about a moral consciousness rising in humans which he called Joshua (meaning salvation), according to the types perceived by him and his community in Hebrew scripture.

Subsequently, later members of his community wrote esoteric stories, ie, the Gospels, personifying the inner Jesus of Paul in the genre of revelatory discourse.

Next, (second century CE) orthodoxy taught those esoteric stories as historical events.

Consequently, everyone erroneously reads into (eisegesis), adds to, Paul’s explanations in his epistles the immersive, fictional, mythical stories found in the Gospels.

For example, where Paul says (1 cor 15) he and the apostles perceived the dying and rising cosmic Christ according to scripture (note: nothing about a reassembled human corpse), everyone else goes, OMG! Paul saw a reassembled corpse! Because that is what the Gospels declare. It is a giant, worldwide self delusion erroneously promoted by orthodoxy to make everyone believe that Paul actually saw with his eyeballs a reassembled human corpse! The lie has been told for so long that nobody dares doubt or question it.
So there was no flesh and blood Jesus, no apostles, no crucifixion?
 
Are you supposedly getting this from the Bible? Can you show me where?
All through the Gospels, although they have been somewhat influenced by Paul's message, you see Jesus railing against the scribes and Pharisees for how they have put the burden of "tradition" upon the people.
Mathew 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 5:17 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them."
In many ways Jesus was a "fundamentalist".
In Mathew 15:24 Jesus say “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
 
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