On what Biblical basis did Mormon prophet Joseph Smith teach that the "Ancient of Days" at Daniel 7:22 is the first man Adam?

jamesh

Active member
The following is what he stated.

"Postmortality One of Adam’s duties in his postmortal role as father of the human race is to help prepare his posterity for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel 7:22 [Dan. 7:22] speaks of the return of the Ancient of Days, which the Prophet Joseph Smith said “means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, [who] will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man” (Teachings, 157). This preparatory council will be held at Adam-ondi-Ahman (see D&C 116:1; Teachings, 122) and will be attended by the Savior (see Teachings, 158)."

Also, Smith says that Michael, will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. This preparatory council will be held at "Adam-ondi-Ahman."

According to Mormon sources this council meeting will take place at "Adam-ondi-Ahman." This is a historic site in Daviess County Missouri, about five miles south of Jameson. It is located along the east bluffs above the Grand River.

According to Daniel 7:1 and the entire context of Daniel 7, Daniel has a dream/visions of God at judgment. This "begs" the question, who has visions of Adam being the "Ancient of Days" and calling for a council meeting in the state of Missouri?
 

Richard7

Well-known member
The following is what he stated.

"Postmortality One of Adam’s duties in his postmortal role as father of the human race is to help prepare his posterity for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel 7:22 [Dan. 7:22] speaks of the return of the Ancient of Days, which the Prophet Joseph Smith said “means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, [who] will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man” (Teachings, 157). This preparatory council will be held at Adam-ondi-Ahman (see D&C 116:1; Teachings, 122) and will be attended by the Savior (see Teachings, 158)."

Also, Smith says that Michael, will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. This preparatory council will be held at "Adam-ondi-Ahman."

According to Mormon sources this council meeting will take place at "Adam-ondi-Ahman." This is a historic site in Daviess County Missouri, about five miles south of Jameson. It is located along the east bluffs above the Grand River.

According to Daniel 7:1 and the entire context of Daniel 7, Daniel has a dream/visions of God at judgment. This "begs" the question, who has visions of Adam being the "Ancient of Days" and calling for a council meeting in the state of Missouri?
Can you show by scripture that God is the Ancient of Days.... most scholars agree that this is true but nothing in the scriptures point to God as being the ancient of days... so its a mute point...
 

The Prophet

Active member
Can you show by scripture that God is the Ancient of Days.... most scholars agree that this is true but nothing in the scriptures point to God as being the ancient of days... so its a mute point...
The title “Ancient of Days” first appears in Daniel 7:9, where Daniel is describing his vision of heaven. There an ancient, or venerable, Person sits on a flaming throne with wheels of fire, His hair and clothing white as snow. The flaming throne is symbolic of judgment, while the white hair and title “Ancient” indicate that God existed before time began. In Isaiah 43:13, we find that God refers to Himself existing from ancient of days (literally, “before days were”). That means God existed before days were even created. We read in Genesis 1 that God created time, days and nights, so God existed from before the beginning of time. God is often represented as ancient, as He that is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2) and as “the first and the last” in Isaiah 44:6.

There can also be no doubt that the reference in Daniel 7 is to God as Judge. A similar description occurs in Revelation 1:14-15, wherein Christ is described as having snow-white hair and blazing eyes. In Revelation, God the Son is depicted with the same power of judgment over His church as the Ancient of Days is described as having in judging Israel. In fact, His sharp gaze judges all seven of the churches in Revelation 1–3 with complete clarity of the reality of all there is to know.

The title "Ancient of Days" is found only three times in Scripture, all three in prophetic passages in Daniel 7:9, 13, and 22. Verse 22 refers specifically to Jesus whose judgment will be part of the end-times events. In Daniel 7:13, the term “ancient of days” refers to God the Father, and we see Him on His throne as Jesus, the “Son of Man” approaches the throne on clouds. God is a triune God, meaning three Persons in One, and at different times “Ancient of Days” refers to Jesus Christ and at other times, to God the Father. But in the prophetic sense, it clearly refers to Jesus, the Ancient of Days returning to pronounce judgment on the world (Daniel 7:22).

 

Richard7

Well-known member
The title “Ancient of Days” first appears in Daniel 7:9, where Daniel is describing his vision of heaven. There an ancient, or venerable, Person sits on a flaming throne with wheels of fire, His hair and clothing white as snow. The flaming throne is symbolic of judgment, while the white hair and title “Ancient” indicate that God existed before time began. In Isaiah 43:13, we find that God refers to Himself existing from ancient of days (literally, “before days were”). That means God existed before days were even created. We read in Genesis 1 that God created time, days and nights, so God existed from before the beginning of time. God is often represented as ancient, as He that is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2) and as “the first and the last” in Isaiah 44:6.

There can also be no doubt that the reference in Daniel 7 is to God as Judge. A similar description occurs in Revelation 1:14-15, wherein Christ is described as having snow-white hair and blazing eyes. In Revelation, God the Son is depicted with the same power of judgment over His church as the Ancient of Days is described as having in judging Israel. In fact, His sharp gaze judges all seven of the churches in Revelation 1–3 with complete clarity of the reality of all there is to know.

The title "Ancient of Days" is found only three times in Scripture, all three in prophetic passages in Daniel 7:9, 13, and 22. Verse 22 refers specifically to Jesus whose judgment will be part of the end-times events. In Daniel 7:13, the term “ancient of days” refers to God the Father, and we see Him on His throne as Jesus, the “Son of Man” approaches the throne on clouds. God is a triune God, meaning three Persons in One, and at different times “Ancient of Days” refers to Jesus Christ and at other times, to God the Father. But in the prophetic sense, it clearly refers to Jesus, the Ancient of Days returning to pronounce judgment on the world (Daniel 7:22).

Ancient of Days is not the same as before days were.... think on that....specifically he is stating of Days and before days...

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

So your trying to say that Christ approached himself...
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Can you show by scripture that God is the Ancient of Days.... most scholars agree that this is true but nothing in the scriptures point to God as being the ancient of days... so its a mute point...
Well, since the Ancient of Days hands the keys to the Son of man, who I believe everyone agrees is Jesus Christ, then by Trinitarian standards the Ancient of Days is not God because Jesus Christ is. In order for our critics to make their doctrine work, they have to pretend that God is playing all the parts in Daniel 7 and God is giving himself the keys.

That doesn't make any sense, just like Trinitarian dogma doesn't make any sense.

They base their "guess" as to who the ancient of days is based on his description:
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him
;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

The very fact that thousands served him means he must be God. :rolleyes:

Then we have the second part of the vision where "there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him (the son of man) was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages should serve him (the son of man); his dominion (the son of man's dominion) is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away and his kingdom [is] one that shall not be destroyed".

Clearly, we have the ancient of days giving up his kingdom and dominion to the son of man. For our critics, this doesn't cause a problem because God gave birth to himself, broadcasted his sonship to himself and that he beloved himself and ascended to himself even though he lied about that because he said he hadn't. It is not possible to ascend to one's self if you are the one.

But common sense tells us that the Ancient of Days is not the son of man. The name itself logically equates to the oldest man. The fact that "days" is used, indicates that the days can be counted, whereas in God's life, they can't be counted. Something marked the beginning of the Ancient's days and I would suggest that the mark was the beginning of time for us. And that's what we believe.

Now, note in the interpretation of the vision, it is the saints of the most High, who will possess the kingdom. Who would represent the saints of the most High? Is that not the son of God, Jesus Christ? Doesn't this match the statements made in the new testament that those who follow Christ will be joint-heirs with Christ?

So, now we have three main characters. The Ancient of Days, the son of man and the most High God. Two of them, we can readily identify. The Savior of the world (the son of man) and the most High God, God the Father. We all have a relationship with these two beings, directly with Christ and with the Father through Christ, Christ being the Father's representative. There appears to be no direct relationship with the Ancient of Days at any point in this narrative. He has people who serve him and many more people who stand before him, but we are not told who these people are.

If I didn't have Joseph Smith to help me out here, I would have to assume that this Ancient of Days was Michael - who, according to the Bible appears to have no relationship to us, but fights God's battles. That fits nicely into Joseph Smith's claim that Michael is Adam and that completes the circle. We now have the oldest man on the earth and a connection between him and the archangel who fights God's battles. It seems fitting to me, that he, under the direction of God, who was first given dominion over all the earth, should hand that domain over to His God and our God.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Ancient of Days is not the same as before days were.... think on that....specifically he is stating of Days and before days...

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

So your trying to say that Christ approached himself...
I know, right? How absolutely ludicrous.
 

Yitoz

Active member
The title “Ancient of Days” first appears in Daniel 7:9, where Daniel is describing his vision of heaven. There an ancient, or venerable, Person sits on a flaming throne with wheels of fire, His hair and clothing white as snow. The flaming throne is symbolic of judgment, while the white hair and title “Ancient” indicate that God existed before time began. In Isaiah 43:13, we find that God refers to Himself existing from ancient of days (literally, “before days were”). That means God existed before days were even created. We read in Genesis 1 that God created time, days and nights, so God existed from before the beginning of time. God is often represented as ancient, as He that is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2) and as “the first and the last” in Isaiah 44:6.

There can also be no doubt that the reference in Daniel 7 is to God as Judge. A similar description occurs in Revelation 1:14-15, wherein Christ is described as having snow-white hair and blazing eyes. In Revelation, God the Son is depicted with the same power of judgment over His church as the Ancient of Days is described as having in judging Israel. In fact, His sharp gaze judges all seven of the churches in Revelation 1–3 with complete clarity of the reality of all there is to know.

The title "Ancient of Days" is found only three times in Scripture, all three in prophetic passages in Daniel 7:9, 13, and 22. Verse 22 refers specifically to Jesus whose judgment will be part of the end-times events. In Daniel 7:13, the term “ancient of days” refers to God the Father, and we see Him on His throne as Jesus, the “Son of Man” approaches the throne on clouds. God is a triune God, meaning three Persons in One, and at different times “Ancient of Days” refers to Jesus Christ and at other times, to God the Father. But in the prophetic sense, it clearly refers to Jesus, the Ancient of Days returning to pronounce judgment on the world (Daniel 7:22).

Even when the passage is explained so any child could see it; mormons continue to circle the wagons around Joseph. This is the very verse that Jesus used at his trial and was declared a blasphemer for applying that verse to Himself. The high priest knew exactly what Jesus was referring to because according to Judaic understanding, the Being sitting on the throne was Yahweh/the Father/Ancient of Days. Judaism never elevated mere men to the level of godhood in the afterlife. Also the rider on the cloud was understood to be a god in many ME religions. It is totally inane that the lesser being (Adam) would have the power or authority to convey dominion, power, and glory unto a greater Being, Jesus/Jehovah/aka yod-heh-vav-heh. In Judeo-Christian thought, Adam fell and lost his spiritual immortality; died and was under the restrictions of the fall; died and had to await the ministry, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus the Messiah before he could arise. Mormons indicated in this false teaching that Adam arouse and ascended before the incarnation of Jesus. That doesn't even make sense according mormon theology.
 

jamesh

Active member
Ancient of Days is not the same as before days were.... think on that....specifically he is stating of Days and before days...

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

So your trying to say that Christ approached himself...
First of all nobody in the history of the Bible, Judaism or Christianity has ever taught or believed that the "Ancient of Days" refers to Adam until the mid 1800's when Joseph Smith introduced this novel idea. Certainly the Jews to whom the word of God came in their own native language have never even considered such a nonsensical interpretation.

Secondly, Adam was created after time and space whereas Jesus eternally existed before His incarnation as a man and according to John 1:1-3 He is identified as the agent of creation. Thirdly, every eye will not see Adam coming with the clouds. Just read Matthew 24. And btw, even you stated that most Scholars agree on who it is? Now, can you please tell me besides Smith who teaches that it is Adam?

Also, this statement: So your trying to say that Christ approached himself... " is not taking into account that there is only one God who manifest Himself as three distinct persons. Jesus is functioning as a man. Revelation 1:6-7, "and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests TO HIS GOD AND FATHER; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Vs7, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Adam, opps, Him/Jesus even those who pierced Adam, opps I did it again; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him; Even so, Amen.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Even when the passage is explained so any child could see it; mormons continue to circle the wagons around Joseph. This is the very verse that Jesus used at his trial and was declared a blasphemer for applying that verse to Himself. The high priest knew exactly what Jesus was referring to because according to Judaic understanding, the Being sitting on the throne was Yahweh/the Father/Ancient of Days. Judaism never elevated mere men to the level of godhood in the afterlife. Also the rider on the cloud was understood to be a god in many ME religions. It is totally inane that the lesser being (Adam) would have the power or authority to convey dominion, power, and glory unto a greater Being, Jesus/Jehovah/aka yod-heh-vav-heh. In Judeo-Christian thought, Adam fell and lost his spiritual immortality; died and was under the restrictions of the fall; died and had to await the ministry, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus the Messiah before he could arise. Mormons indicated in this false teaching that Adam arouse and ascended before the incarnation of Jesus. That doesn't even make sense according mormon theology.

Dainiel 9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Matthew 19... And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Chuckle: It's not throne, notice in Daniel its plural and also in Matthew its plural.... and you never explained this: He approached the Ancient of Days.... so who approached the Ancient of Days if it was God then who else would it be...
 
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Richard7

Well-known member
"you're".



Nope.
Christ isn't the Father.
The One God you mean.... Approached the One God.... how does that add up... and if God is invisible how can he sit... and now as we all agree it's Christ that did come unto the Ancient (ADAM) of Days...
 

Richard7

Well-known member
First of all nobody in the history of the Bible, Judaism or Christianity has ever taught or believed that the "Ancient of Days" refers to Adam until the mid 1800's when Joseph Smith introduced this novel idea. Certainly the Jews to whom the word of God came in their own native language have never even considered such a nonsensical interpretation.

Secondly, Adam was created after time and space whereas Jesus eternally existed before His incarnation as a man and according to John 1:1-3 He is identified as the agent of creation. Thirdly, every eye will not see Adam coming with the clouds. Just read Matthew 24. And btw, even you stated that most Scholars agree on who it is? Now, can you please tell me besides Smith who teaches that it is Adam?

Also, this statement: So your trying to say that Christ approached himself... " is not taking into account that there is only one God who manifest Himself as three distinct persons. Jesus is functioning as a man. Revelation 1:6-7, "and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests TO HIS GOD AND FATHER; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Vs7, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Adam, opps, Him/Jesus even those who pierced Adam, opps I did it again; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him; Even so, Amen.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the bclouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Where in Daniels does it say every eye.. where in Matthew are you taking this from..?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The One God you mean.... Approached the One God.... how does that add up... and if God is invisible how can he sit... and now as we all agree it's Christ that did come unto the Ancient (ADAM) of Days...

No, we don't "agree" that it is "Adam".
Do you get some kind of thrill misrepresenting me?
 

Yitoz

Active member
Dainiel 9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Matthew 19... And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Chuckle: It's not throne, notice in Daniel its plural and also in Matthew its plural.... and you never explained this: He approached the Ancient of Days.... so who approached the Ancient of Days if it was God then who else would it be...
The thrones were cast down indicating that all thrones (whether in heaven, on the earth, or anywhere else in the cosmos) nations, kindreds, and tongues would bow before the 'Son of Man.' This is similar to the vision in the Book of Revelation where those that were sitting on thrones bowed down and cast their crowns before the Lamb.

The twelve thrones of the apostles indicate they would sit on thrones in the future age(s), and not in the past during the Babylonian exile when Daniel had that vision. As has already been explained; the Son of Man (Jesus/Yeshua) approached the Ancient of Days (Yahweh/the Father) whereupon, the Ancient of Days/the Father bestowed the keys of the kingdom and gave Him all power and authority over all creation.

After Gen. 5, Adam was only mentioned in genealogies throughout the OT, and referred to in the NT in a similar manner. If Adam had actually been referred to as the AOD in Dan. 7, then the indignation at the illegal trial that Jesus was being put through, as well as the high priest illegally tearing his garment when he declared that confession that He (Jesus) was the rider on the cloud was blasphemy. This shows that the Sanhedrin believed that Jesus equated Himself as God. Only God the Father had the authority to bestow all authority onto the 'Son of Man/Jesus.' Joseph's teaching on this Chapter is a serious error on his part.
 

jamesh

Active member
nope, but you have to slow down and be more specific in the how? I'm teachable, so teach me how God is three personages...
Now your changing the subject by wanting to know how God is three personages, why? I'm am teachable as well, show me how Adam is the "Ancient of Days" from the Bible? In fact, show where the "Ancient of Days" is in the BoM? I don't recall reading about it in the BoM? At Daniel 7:13 Jesus Christ, not Adam often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man."

He is the one coming for His church after the great tribulation, see Matthew 24:30-31. The Ancient of Days is God the Father at Daniel 7:13, "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold with the clouds of heaven, One like the Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him." Vs14, "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed."

What did Jesus say at Matthew 28:18 All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Or at Revelation 1:7, "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen." So, Mr. Richard, do you really think that this Adam according to Joseph Smith? Where's your proof?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Ancient of Days is not the same as before days were.... think on that....specifically he is stating of Days and before days...

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

So your trying to say that Christ approached himself...
Nowhere did the Prophet say that Jesus approached Himself here. Did you not read that he wrote that "God is Triune"? He wrote "God is a triune God, meaning three Persons in One..."

Don't forget that the BoM has Jesus, several times, as His very own Father. Did you forget that part?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
nope, but you have to slow down and be more specific in the how? I'm teachable, so teach me how God is three personages...
God can do and be whatever He pleases. He is infinite and uncreated and we are finite and created. God is not held captive to our limited ability to understand His nature fully, this side of heaven. So, He can be One God that expresses Himself in three separate, eternal Persons.

But the BoM itself teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the one God...perhaps YOU should teach US why it says that....? And why JS denied that, later on, claiming he had always taught that Father, Son, and HG are three gods, which is false. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses in the forepart of the BoM also testified that Father, Son, and HG are the "One God."

The BoM also has Jesus as His own Father, in a few places...perhaps you can teach us how that is possible....?
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
First of all nobody in the history of the Bible, Judaism or Christianity has ever taught or believed that the "Ancient of Days" refers to Adam
So? Like I said, Christianity is not based on popular vote. Has it ever occurred to u that everybody might have been wrong about that until 1800? 😉
 
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