on why the bible is a reliable resource

bigthinker

Active member
Yeah, except I'm seeing things that you're saying that you've ignored. So, I don't have a problem with what I see. Especially when you say things you don't realize.

Action, and results, when tested against the objective.


Oh, I don't know. It looks pretty clear to me.
You don't believe that the bible is a reliable document, so you don't believe anything anyone says which supports the veracity of the biblical narrative.




Which I find humorous, because your lack of belief is not based on having verified it. Rather, simply from refusal to do.
The most amusing attribute of confirmation bias is that all you have to do is nothing, and you've confirmed your bias.
We who follow Jesus, we're commanded to do what the bible says, so we can know for ourselves whether or not it's true. That's actually the antithesis of confirmation bias.


Not just scripture. I have however read, and acted on it long enough to know that it's true.
So, I have no problem with my view.
I do however find myself questioning your view, because you've refused to do what is required to know, and continue to claim that by not believing, you've somehow definitively proven it false.
That's a weak position, and has no basis in fact, or reality. It only has validity in your mind.


I'd think that Truth would be enough to care. Furthermore, I'd think the final state of your life would further be enough to know.
So, if you don't care, then why are you wasting your life on an internet forum, arguing with strangers, trying to win an unwinnable argument?
I've found myself wondering if the truth is that people like you don't actually want to know, and are in fact just looking for means and ways to justify yourselves, so you can move on. Otherwise, you'd be taking the time to learn, and then do what Jesus said, so you can actually know.



EXACTLY.
So, I want to know--- why are you wasting your time here?
When I lived an atheistic life, I didn't care one iota about such matters, and the last place I wanted to be is in an environment where I had to listen to people tell me I was wrong, and needed to deal with it.


Considering that you just said you don't want to know what part is factually true, reliable, and therefore, meaningful.
You're placing yourself in a position of just adding wrath to your condemnation by continuing to engage in discussion on this topic.
Go out, live your life. It'll be over with soon enough, and you'll wish you would've paid more attention.
I hope to meet you in eternity, so turn to Jesus, before its too late to do anything about it.


I'm already aware of this. Yet you continue to expose yourself to us, come to a website dedicated entirely to your salvation, and knowledge of God.
God has said he'll make sure that the knowledge of God will fill the whole earth. You can either benefit from it, or exclude yourself from it. I encourage you to benefit from it. It'd be a pity for you to be so close, and yet exclude yourself from life.



It's a choice you have to make. God says it matters.
The question becomes--- what's more important to you?
What you think you know, or what you can know?
You're more than welcome to remain ignorant. But I've never once seen where ignorance is a positive state to remain in.



You've said that several times now.
So, remain in ignorance then. It is after all your life.



Yep. you've stated that several times now.
That is your prerogative. It's your eternity too.



Why don't you just call on his name. He did say--- whosoever will call upon him shall be saved.


Then do what Jesus said, and you'll have your own reasons, instead of someone else's which you clearly don't want.



That's your prerogative.



No. You're only more powerful than God in your own mind.

Jesus made this really clear.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Do you want to be forced, and held down, or do you want to be freed, so you can choose for yourself?
As some have said before--- God is a gentleman. He's inviting you. He's not going to force you.
There is an external standard for determining what is factually true. None of what you claim meets that standard. The issue is that you aren't unfamiliar with the standard because its the same standard you use for factual truth. For example, the amount of gasoline in your car's gas tank is measurable. The actual amount is indifferent to what you believe is the amount. We rely on the fuel indicator which we have experienced as being repeatedly reliable. The amount of fuel in your tank is an objective amount.
This is different from beliefs. With beliefs, one can have whatever standard they want because beliefs are not falsifiable.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is an external standard for determining what is factually true.
Ok. What is this standard you're talking about?

And how do I know that your interpretation of this standard is accurately understood?


None of what you claim meets that standard. The issue is that you aren't unfamiliar with the standard because its the same standard you use for factual truth.
For example, the amount of gasoline in your car's gas tank is measurable.

So, I'm supposed to use a liquid gauge to measure everything we talk about to determine the veracity of it?

The actual amount is indifferent to what you believe is the amount. We rely on the fuel indicator which we have experienced as being repeatedly reliable. The amount of fuel in your tank is an objective amount.

well, if I'm to measure the veracity of your statements here with a liquid gauge, then everything that you have stated since you have arrived on this forum has been false.


This is different from beliefs. With beliefs, one can have whatever standard they want because beliefs are not falsifiable.

Then you will have to learn to use the correct gauges for the correct applications.

Eg, I'd never use a liquid gauge to determine the area of a square, or the length of a board I need for a shelf in my garage.

Nor would I use a tape measure to determine how many gallons are in the hose, or bucket.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Ok. What is this standard you're talking about?

And how do I know that your interpretation of this standard is accurately understood?
How do you determine that a claim is true. If I told you that water boils at 280F, how would you determine if my claim is accurate or inaccurate?
So, I'm supposed to use a liquid gauge to measure everything we talk about to determine the veracity of it?
For measuring liquids, yes.
well, if I'm to measure the veracity of your statements here with a liquid gauge,
Steve, c'mon. I suspect you're more intelligent than that.
Then you will have to learn to use the correct gauges for the correct applications.

Eg, I'd never use a liquid gauge to determine the area of a square, or the length of a board I need for a shelf in my garage.

Nor would I use a tape measure to determine how many gallons are in the hose, or bucket.
Exactly!
So, how do you determine if your claims are true? YOU said they are measurable; so in what way, what device(s) do you use, what is being measured?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How do you determine that a claim is true. If I told you that water boils at 280F, how would you determine if my claim is accurate or inaccurate?
Easy. I start boiling water and using a variety of calibrated thermometers to check the veracity of the claim.

What's amusing here is that you don't want to do what Jesus said so you can learn for yourself if what he said is true or not.



For measuring liquids, yes.
Except I'm not measuring gallons of liquids here.

I'm measuring the veracity of the claims of the bible using the tools that God says have been calibrated for the purpose of knowing the veracity of the biblical claims.

Steve, c'mon. I suspect you're more intelligent than that.
I'm giving you the opportunity to recognize that you are choosing the wrong tools to verify the truth regarding the bible.





Exactly!
So, how do you determine if your claims are true? YOU said they are measurable; so in what way, what device(s) do you use, what is being measured?
Then why would I use man made tools to check the veracity of biblical christianity?

I need the tools made by God to check them against.

Just like I need tools made by the people who have already determined the various physical attributes of nature.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Easy. I start boiling water and using a variety of calibrated thermometers to check the veracity of the claim.
correct.
What's amusing here is that you don't want to do what Jesus said so you can learn for yourself if what he said is true or not.
no, what's amusing is that while you expect me to accept your claim on your say so, you dismiss my claim only because the result doesn't align with your bias.
Except I'm not measuring gallons of liquids here.
of course.
I'm measuring the veracity of the claims of the bible using the tools that God says have been calibrated for the purpose of knowing the veracity of the biblical claims.
explain the calibration process.
the problem is that you're calibrating to the thing being tested.
I'm giving you the opportunity to recognize that you are choosing the wrong tools to verify the truth regarding the bible.
you're using the thing to be measured for the calibration.
the point of using a thermometer to determine the boiling point of water is that it's an objective measurement.
Then why would I use man made tools to check the veracity of biblical christianity?
because what we want to know whether it is factually true, not just confirm beliefs about it.
I need the tools made by God to check them against.
no. lol. the existence God is the thing being tested, the thing under question.
Just like I need tools made by the people who have already determined the various physical attributes of nature.
that's not how it works. we use tools calibrated against a standard.

what you are suggesting would be like using a calibrated thermometer to measure the boiling point but using the point at which the water bubbles as the calibration point for the thermometer.
Such a circular test produces no useful, information; the accuracy cannot be b trusted.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
correct.

no, what's amusing is that while you expect me to accept your claim on your say so, you dismiss my claim only because the result doesn't align with your bias.
Curious that I'm the one with the bias, and you still live with ignorance of God. Which is incredibly ironic, because God has said he'll give you the wherewithal to actually know him.
So, is it bias to claim you can't know, or to actually know because I used the tools provided to do the job needed to know?


of course.

explain the calibration process.
the problem is that you're calibrating to the thing being tested.
Why don't you. Especially since I'm the one who is biased.
This should be really easy for you.

you're using the thing to be measured for the calibration.
I'm using the calibration source, so I can measure my experiences against it to know if my experience is valid or not.

the point of using a thermometer to determine the boiling point of water is that it's an objective measurement.
Yet if used at varying elevations, it's not accurate.
As shown in the list of altitudes at which water boils at lower temps.

because what we want to know whether it is factually true, not just confirm beliefs about it.
Yet here you are, arguing against something you don't want to believe, using your beliefs to justify your ignorance.
Just how do your biased beliefs in what you don't know actually prove that your ignorance is valid?

no. lol. the existence God is the thing being tested, the thing under question.
Then do what Jesus said.
He's the one who made it clear----
Keep my teachings, and you will show you love him, you will be loved by God, and both Jesus and God will come and make their home with you.

Having been married for over 30 years now, I have to say, living under the same roof with someone is no better way of learning just how real they actually are.

You can either learn the truth, or remain ignorant, excluding yourself from knowing God.


that's not how it works. we use tools calibrated against a standard.
And yet you refuse to use the standard to actually learn how to use the tools.
This seems bass-ackwards to me.
Why would you do this?


what you are suggesting would be like using a calibrated thermometer to measure the boiling point but using the point at which the water bubbles as the calibration point for the thermometer.
Such a circular test produces no useful, information; the accuracy cannot be b trusted.
Yet you use circular tests to prove you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to God.
 

Nouveau

Active member
I'm using the calibration source, so I can measure my experiences against it to know if my experience is valid or not.
Except that you can't, because getting a predicted result is not alone enough to confirm validity. As I've explained before, you need to also establish that the explanation you are validating is actually the best explanation for the result in question. Otherwise the sun rising tomorrow will be valid confirmation of the existence of magical pixies who appeared to me in a dream to tell me the sun would rise tomorrow.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Except that you can't, because getting a predicted result is not alone enough to confirm validity. As I've explained before, you need to also establish that the explanation you are validating is actually the best explanation for the result in question. Otherwise the sun rising tomorrow will be valid confirmation of the existence of magical pixies who appeared to me in a dream to tell me the sun would rise tomorrow.
By all means.
Provide a more accurate explanation for why my cancer didn't kill me.
Provide a more accurate explanation for why my gun shot wound was a mess on Friday, and on Monday is was perfectly healed, and "didn't look like a bullet ever went through there."
Provide a more accurate explanation for why, in the midst of all the despair, heartache, grief, sorrow, loss, pain, etc... I "have a greater capacity for hope than" my doctor "had ever seen in" his 30+ years of practice as a medical doctor.

You can't just throw out any explanation which you find easier to rationalize your unbelief. It's about the most accurate explanation.
I can easily find all kinds of "rational", "logical", and reasonable explanations for what happened to me, and what's been happening, and what is still happening to me....

I do not want easy.
I want true, and accurate.

I know YHVH is the Truth, and accurate in his explanations.

So.... by all means.
You provide a more accurate explanation for everything that's happened to me over the past 43+ years.
 

Nouveau

Active member
You provide a more accurate explanation for everything that's happened to me over the past 43+ years.
Sure. After you provide a detailed and evidenced account of what you want explained.

Natural remissions are rare, but not unheard of. Positing God as the cause is a worse explanation because it makes Him into a capricious monster for saving some but not others. I have no evidence of your alleged miraculous gunshot recovery, so I can explain that as either made-up or grossly exaggerated. And a capacity for hope clearly requires no supernatural source.

I notice you don't even try to detail your religious experience resulting from you asking God if He was real, or compare it in any specific detail to what the Bible predicts will result. Again, it's not enough to get the predicted result, unless you can also show that there is no other more reasonable and more credible explanation for that result.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Prophecies that totally fail... and others that are too abstract to have any concrete meaning or interpretation.
quite right.
so abstract as to lack any kind of meaningful detail.
Post hoc however is easy to put all kinds of pieces together to make it look accurate.
 
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