on why the bible is a reliable resource

SteveB

Active member
So in fact nothing predicated on the premise that one can actually know the bible is verifiable through action on its principles and precepts.

As I said.


We do not hide them. It is quite simple: We do not believe any God exists.
So, as long as you believe it, it's true? I remember having this discussion before.... numerous times as a matter of fact.
Do you think that if you believe that gravity will not affect you, that'll make you free from the consequences of ignoring gravity?


That is not the problem. The problem is that Christians insist we hate God (or worship Satan!), not realising that being an atheist means you do not believe God exists.
then you should consider asking why that is.....
Why would we come up with such an idea?
Did it ever occur to you that it's actually based on a statement in the bible?
Did it ever further occur to you that hate is not necessarily an emotion?
I have a novel idea for you.....
When someone says that you hate God, or worship satan, ask them why they say that? Do they have some basis for it, or did someone tell them that, without giving them a reason why.

in fact, I encourage you to review this. It's a list of all the times the word-- hate, hateful, etc.....--- appears in the bible.
Including the instances where God says he will repay to their face all who hate him.....


And hatred

We're actually interested in you learning to understand, as well as you ultimately coming to Jesus, so you can enjoy everlasting life.

There actually is a basis for this hate thing.



I would love it if you could think for yourself, Steve.
I've been thinking for myself for decades.
Based on what I've read, it seems more likely that you'd rather I think the way you think, so you could have someone agree with you.
I prefer the way that I think, because with the way that I think, I enjoy peace, and confidence. I enjoy quietness of mind.
I like it this way.


Religion is in the business of marketing "jam tomorrow". Sure, no apocalypse yet, but some day, and soon, so join up fast. Sure, no benefit for you in this life, but some day, after you die.
I think atheists have some twisted ideas of what religion is.
Biblical religion is about caring for orphans, and widows. It's about living a life that honors God. James 1:26-27

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

And in Isaiah 58.

Perhaps you should try to get a more accurate perspective.


What Christianity sells is exactly the same as Islam sells or Hinduism or all the rest. Empty promises.
Really? So..... you know this..... how?
Because I've been a follower of Jesus for over 43 years now, and I've never purchased anything that's definitively "christian."


Daniel is another great example of someone claiming the apocalypse is just around the corner. It was written around 165 BC (or at least the last few chapters, earlier chapters may be earlier). Chapters 10 and 11 make various so-called predictions about events up to when it was written, but at Dan 11:36 it moves into speculation, with Antiochus conquering Egypt (in fact he died of disease very shortly after), and then confidently predicting the apocalypse within just a few years - specifically 1,290 days.
It was actually written in the mid to late 500's BC, and while there are a lot of people who want it to be later in history, so they can dismiss the prophetic nature of the text, it simply shows what the then future of the world would be, with respect to its impact on Israel.



Of course, the church has conditioned its followers to blindly believe any nonsense. Sure, the author of Daniel said the apocalypse would be in about 160 BC, but we can pretend he really meant something else. Sure Jesus said the apocalypse would be within the lifetime of his disciples, but we can pretend he really meant something else. Sure Paul said the apocalypse would be within his lifetime, but we can pretend he really meant something else.
You apparently missed the memo.
Sad really.... Jesus issued it immediately prior to his ascension.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

I.e., everyone who followed Jesus, down through the ages thought he'd return before he has.

Jesus further told us....

Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. Luke 17

So.... while I get that you feel justified in your lack of belief, and knowledge, you're just demonstrating that what he warned us of is happening right in front of our eyes. So... thank you for demonstrating the bible is accurate.

It's always nice to witness people do that..... And you do it so perfectly. We can't make this stuff up.


I would love it you you could think for yourself Steve. But I am not holding my breath,
As I stated, I've been thinking for myself for over four decades. So, you can stop holding your breath now.
And do yourself a favor--- stop thinking that you think for yourself.
If you did, you wouldn't be trying to get people to think like you, or think like what others tell you it's supposed to be.


Wow, you found a fourth example. Here we have Peter (or whoever) saying he is living in the last days. He wrote that letter to a specific group of people living at that time; the warning was to those people, alive when he was, and - as he believed - living in the last days.
Yep.... we've all been thinking this for millennia.....
The other memo you missed was the one given by Joel.
God said he'd pour out his Spirit on all flesh in the last days. So, when God says something are the last days, we have a tendency to look up, and pay attention......
As pouring out his Spirit on all flesh took place on the Shavuot festival, 7 weeks after the crucifixion of Jesus, we've been living in the last days since May, ~33 AD.



And so all the failed claims of apocalypse coming are rationalised away.
Yep. Even Jesus told us this.....

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’[fn] Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[fn]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

You really should pay attention.
Jesus told us it'd come when we least expect it. It'd also come as a snare to all who dwell on the face of the earth.
 

SteveB

Active member
Never mind what Jesus actually said. Never mind what Paul actually said. Just pretend it does not apply, and rely on the fact that theists cannot think for themselves.
You mean like the guy who's telling me he wants me to think like him, while making it appear that I should think for myself?
Yes, actually he did. Go read 1 Cor 15. Paul talks about the coming apocalypse, when all the righteous will be resurrected. But what of those who are not dead at that time? Clearly they will not be resurrected! But they will be transformed, he assures us. And he counts himself among those who will be transformed, rather than resurrected.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ok. You're going to have to show me where he said it'd happen before he died. Because for the life of me... I just don't see it.



Or so you have been told to think, anyway. Never mind what Jesus actually meant, just believe what you are told to think.
Oh, so the words used don't actually have the meaning they do in any other circle/venue of usage?
Wow..... how does that work? Because if I were to think for myself, it seems pretty clear what he meant.....
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Ironically..... the word used for generation.... in the greek it's genea.
Genea has a few different meanings. the first one is the lineage of people.
So, it would more likely mean----- the lineage of those who see these things will not pass away until all these things take place.

So.... by all means.... you go ahead and work through that.




Here is the actual verse.

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Examine the statement in the greek.


Again, Steve, I urge you to think for yourself. Read the verses, and see what they really say, not what you are told to see there.

Just as long as thinking for myself winds up that I agree with you, right?

I'm curious....

What happens if in thinking for myself, I wind up exactly where I am, and agree with God's way, and choose to believe in Jesus?
Am I really not thinking for myself if I do it the way that I've been doing it for the past 43+ years?
 

The Pixie

Member
So, as long as you believe it, it's true? I remember having this discussion before.... numerous times as a matter of fact.
You have it the wrong way round. If the evidence points to it being true, we believe it is probably true.

See this is what we mean about Christians not understanding atheism.

then you should consider asking why that is.....
Why would we come up with such an idea?
Did it ever occur to you that it's actually based on a statement in the bible?
I know full well it is based on a verse in the Bible.

I also know it is WRONG.

Did it ever further occur to you that hate is not necessarily an emotion?
I have a novel idea for you.....
When someone says that you hate God, or worship satan, ask them why they say that? Do they have some basis for it, or did someone tell them that, without giving them a reason why.
Why would ask? I already know it is based on a verse in the Bible.

I also know it is WRONG.

And this is a very good reason for atheists to reject Christianity. The Bible is clearly WRONG. I know for sure it is wrong in places because I know it is WRONG about this.

I've been thinking for myself for decades.
Based on what I've read, it seems more likely that you'd rather I think the way you think, so you could have someone agree with you.
I would rather you think like I do do because you will be much more likely to believe what is true.

I prefer the way that I think, because with the way that I think, I enjoy peace, and confidence. I enjoy quietness of mind.
I like it this way.
Well at least you are not claiming you believe it because it is true. That is a start.

Biblical religion is about caring for orphans, and widows. It's about living a life that honors God. James 1:26-27
My bad. I thought Christianity was centred on the resurrection of Jesus, not caring for orphans and widows.

Really? So..... you know this..... how?
Because I've been a follower of Jesus for over 43 years now, and I've never purchased anything that's definitively "christian."
How much money have you given to the church?

What has the church given you in return besides the promise of an afterlife?

It was actually written in the mid to late 500's BC, and while there are a lot of people who want it to be later in history, so they can dismiss the prophetic nature of the text, it simply shows what the then future of the world would be, with respect to its impact on Israel.
It accurately describes what will happen to Judah up to about 165 BC, and then at that point gets it very wrong.

The most likely reason for that is it was written around 165 BC, and the subsequent verses are wishful thinking, and when the apocalypse failed to happen three and a half years later the priests pretended it meant something else.

See, this is what I mean about selling empty promises.

You apparently missed the memo.
Sad really.... Jesus issued it immediately prior to his ascension.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

I.e., everyone who followed Jesus, down through the ages thought he'd return before he has.
By the time Acts was written, ca. AD 90, all the disciples were likely dead, so the author knew Jesus' prophecy had failed. This is his attempt to push it indefinitely into the future. An empty promise of "Jam tomorrow".

It's always nice to witness people do that..... And you do it so perfectly. We can't make this stuff up.
Sure, some Biblical prophecies come true.

The gospels predict there will be people who are sceptical of their claims.... And Wow it got that right! That is incredible.

The Pixie Prophecy: I predict you will reply to this post.

If that prophecy comes true, will you be amazed? Of course not! It is just as inevitable as your Biblical prediction of doubters. But you want the Bible to be true, so you set the bar so low.

As I stated, I've been thinking for myself for over four decades.
And yet you think the Bible predicting that people will doubt it is a great prophecy.

Maybe you need to think a little deeper.
 

The Pixie

Member
You apparently missed the memo.
Sad really.... Jesus issued it immediately prior to his ascension.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Apparently the author of Mark missed that memo.

Mark 16:6 And he said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’”

Were the disciples told to go to Galilee? Or to stay in Jerusalem?
 

Mr Laurier

Member
So, you're bothered that people who lived in the western edge of the region, originally came from the eastern edge of the region, and received the western edge as their inheritance....
Again, no. How do you manage to be so bizzarely wrong, every time you make a conclusion?
 

Mr Laurier

Member
If this is why you're bothered, then you don't grasp the concept of local, regional, national, and global. And quite frankly, I don't know how to help you understand something that people in my generation never had a problem with.
Again with the big "If".
You keep assuming that I am bothered by something.
Meanwhile I fully grasp the concepts of local, regional, national, and global. I have fully grasped them for a little over 49 years.
 

Mr Laurier

Member
I have a novel idea....
Build a time machine, bring several news reporters with you. go to ancient Israel, grab a few dozen people, and then go deeper into the middle east. Spread them out, get them engaged in what's happening elsewhere, and then afterwards, take them back, and have them spread the news of other's lives....
Then you'll have what you want.
Or I could read the records of diplomacy from the period, without the need to personally develop a technology that cannot exist.
And I can go to REAL places, that actually exist.
You seem to think I want something I have never wanted. You do this a lot.

We have the diplomatic records, the sales receipts, and the letters, of the period. No need to build a time machine.
 

Mr Laurier

Member
Until you understand that the way people lived back then you'll never comprehend why the bible doesn't tell everyone's story, from every part of planet earth.
I already understand how people lived in Palestine during the bronze age and the iron age. And I already understand why the bible doesn't tell everybody's story from every part of planet Earth.
I read the accounts of the discoveries made by archeologists and anthropologists. Its not as though I live under a rock in Antarctica. I have a well worn library card.
 

Carol

Member

Overview​

How did we get the Bible? How do we know it is reliable? How do we know we have the right books? What about translations?

The ability to answer these questions is an important component of the Christian life in the 21st Century. Applying his expertise to this area David Gooding explains why we can be confident that the Bible is God’s word.


A collection of articles, and audio lectures on the reliability of the bible.

Biblonians.....

Jesus is the Word.
 
I'd say it's because people who don't like the bible, don't understand the nature of paradoxes, and complex thought.
It appears they want easy, and are afraid of simple, so they need to conflate matters which are not conflateable.
I'm sure there's more to it than just those things, but I'd say you just need to slow down, and stop reading for the purpose of winning an argument--- which really is not winnable.
No Steve these texts contain contradictions. Who actually killed Goliath? Why does the Almighty contradict himself? Which evangelist's birth narrative has the correct time-frame? Who actually went to the tomb?

Those are just four off the top of my head.
 

Tiburon

Member
Based on whose interpretation and perspective?
And how do you know that you are not using bad data as a basis to interpret the bible data?
If the evidence contradicts the Biblical story there is no way to interpret it to make it fit. You can't create evidence to fit your story.
 

SteveB

Active member
You have it the wrong way round. If the evidence points to it being true, we believe it is probably true.
Ironic.
Because the evidence has been available for millennia, which is exactly why I believe Jesus.
I would not be here otherwise.



See this is what we mean about Christians not understanding atheism.
Rotfl.
We think that atheists don't understand atheism.
They're constantly changing their claims.


I know full well it is based on a verse in the Bible.

I also know it is WRONG.
So your inexperience is the proof that YHVH doesn't exist...
Got it.
Let me know how that gravity thing works out for you.


Why would ask? I already know it is based on a verse in the Bible.

I also know it is WRONG.
Where I come from, we don't take the word of strangers, or family or friends for that matter.

We test everything for ourselves.
So, you're going to have to demonstrate how you know it's wrong.


And this is a very good reason for atheists to reject Christianity. The Bible is clearly WRONG. I know for sure it is wrong in places because I know it is WRONG about this.
That's ok. This is why we know atheism is a lie.
We've been doing it for millennia.


I would rather you think like I do do because you will be much more likely to believe what is true.
You see.... this doesn't work for me.
You expect me to stop thinking and just parrot you.

I'm not interested in being a parrot. I actually enjoy learning thinking and working through complex ideas.


Well at least you are not claiming you believe it because it is true. That is a start.
Oh, it's true. We wouldn't be here otherwise.


My bad. I thought Christianity was centred on the resurrection of Jesus, not caring for orphans and widows.
It is.
True religion is about caring for the people who God cares about.


How much money have you given to the church?
None of your business.


What has the church given you in return besides the promise of an afterlife?

Let's see....
Friendship, respect, dignity, truth, honesty, community, compassion, encouragement, hope, interest, food, financial assistance when the need was great. The list goes on for a while, but I think this is sufficient.

It accurately describes what will happen to Judah up to about 165 BC, and then at that point gets it very wrong.

The most likely reason for that is it was written around 165 BC, and the subsequent verses are wishful thinking, and when the apocalypse failed to happen three and a half years later the priests pretended it meant something else.
Hmm.... well, you haven't actually provided anything that would give me a reason to believe you.
This is why I don't want to think like you. You just expect people to take your opinions without question.
That doesn't fly with me.

See, this is what I mean about selling empty promises.


By the time Acts was written, ca. AD 90, all the disciples were likely dead, so the author knew Jesus' prophecy had failed. This is his attempt to push it indefinitely into the future. An empty promise of "Jam tomorrow".
The curious thing about this claim is your lack of knowledge of the importance of the temple of Jewish life.
If it was later dates, as you think, the destruction of the temple was one of those major local and regional news events.
The Romans finally gutted their long time antagonists.

It made it into the annals of history.

So something like a much later date would've had a larger portion, with the ideas of--- hey. Look! Remember when Jesus said that the temple would be destroyed? Well, here it is.

So, you go right ahead. This just shows me that you are not thinking at all.


Sure, some Biblical prophecies come true.

The gospels predict there will be people who are sceptical of their claims.... And Wow it got that right! That is incredible.

The Pixie Prophecy: I predict you will reply to this post.

If that prophecy comes true, will you be amazed? Of course not! It is just as inevitable as your Biblical prediction of doubters. But you want the Bible to be true, so you set the bar so low.


And yet you think the Bible predicting that people will doubt it is a great prophecy.
Curious about prophecy.
It's not vague like nostradamus.
God gives us milepost markers that he thinks matters, not what we think
we want.

You did however just demonstrate that Peter is right.

2Pe 3:3-4 WEB 3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”


Maybe you need to think a little deeper.
After observing your thinking in this and numerous previous posts, I'm not bothered with what you claim my thinking is.
 

SteveB

Active member
Apparently the author of Mark missed that memo.

Mark 16:6 And he said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’”

Were the disciples told to go to Galilee? Or to stay in Jerusalem?
Both.
 

Mr Laurier

Member
I'm simply asking questions.
Well, try this.
I volunteer in the community. I help people. I help addicts, and homeless, and people with severe mental health issues.
I help the local women's shelter whenever I can.
I jam with friends, who are all better musicians than I am.
I read a wide range of topics.
I live a full and happy life.
I enjoy my life.
I like to try to make the world a little better. Small things that help others.
I sail.
I am not the one dimensional caricature you have in mind when you think of an atheist. Nobody is.
 

e v e

Member
actually, if properly translated, it does say quite a bit about egypt, RA, Isis, etc (the egypt realm in the other world being God's enemy!) But much of the old testament for example, is also speaking of the other world, the city of On which sits right atop eden and which Isaiah discusses the destruction of, now, in our time. Not everything in the Old testament is about the bc era. that way of 'reading' was a decision, and I would say intentional one, to hide the context of what Egypt is all about.

So for example, the egyptian texts, referring to the other world, talk about apep (adam) quite a bit. And have a symbol for the threat posed to them by eden, which is the 'magically dangerous' glyph \\. True, the current bible was translated by esau types who intentionally hid the context and excluded many texts, for example enoch, who perfectly well describes the binary system of eden.

the whole war of heliocentrism was really to make it seem that this cartesian realm is 'all there is' and that it is solar etc., because that conflicted with scripture, and there were still those in ancient times who could actually 'read.' However, scripture is not talking about this one! (something the other realm and its esaus want to hide!) This one is indeed solar. Scripture is talking about the other world, in which God's creation is binary not solar and which uses different construct than this (fallen) 'universe' does.

The point was not an either or, but, that this earth is not even the place scripture was talking about. A point neatly 'gotten rid of' by many committees over many centuries, along with other points that would make this post too long. So, I have glossed over points concerning egypt since there is too much detail about that in scripture to repeat and anyway, no one accepts it these days.
 
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Tiburon

Member
then they were documented by everyone else.
I suppose I'm not real concerned by this.
I read a local paper. I see local news.
If I want regional news, I go to a regional paper. If I want national news, I look at a national paper. If I want global news, I use a global news source.
If this is why you're bothered, then you don't grasp the concept of local, regional, national, and global. And quite frankly, I don't know how to help you understand something that people in my generation never had a problem with.



So, you're bothered that people who lived in the western edge of the region, originally came from the eastern edge of the region, and received the western edge as their inheritance....
Again.... this is a lack of understanding of how local, regional, national, and global news works.
I just don't look at local sources for regional, or national news.
they may have more important stories--- per the perspective of the editor/publisher.
So, the stories depend on the observers to publish them. If observers from Israel did not exist, then they wouldn't have the stories to tell.



I have a novel idea....
Build a time machine, bring several news reporters with you. go to ancient Israel, grab a few dozen people, and then go deeper into the middle east. Spread them out, get them engaged in what's happening elsewhere, and then afterwards, take them back, and have them spread the news of other's lives....
Then you'll have what you want.

Until you understand that the way people lived back then you'll never comprehend why the bible doesn't tell everyone's story, from every part of planet earth.
Except the bible is purported to come from God. It's apparently not your regular town gossip sheet. It's supposed to be the story of the people of Israel. Are you telling us that some of these major geopolitical goings on in the region had no impact on Israel? That they weren't even noticed?
 
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