On WoF Boxes and errant doctrine

tbeachhead

Well-known member
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

Hmm, the way you tell it, they got overpowered. The way I tell it, it was still alive and well in Phoenix.
When has anyone overpowered gates when their butts are glued to pews once a week? To overpower a gate you go to the gate like an unnamed evangelist in the capital cities of Islam. Gates don’t move. When the church is sedentary nothing is overcome.

You go to the gates. Then you tear them down…like the seventy did… or like Jonathan Edwards did in Enfield, CT.
 
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BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
When has anyone overpowered gates when their butts are glued to pews once a week? To overpower a gate you go to the gate like an unnamed evangelist in the capital cities of Islam.
Oh, that's right. You have your own erroneous interpretation of gates and overpowering.

Let's review:

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[u] will not overpower it.​

Ok. Who is Jesus "telling." Jesus is telling to Peter. What's he say? "On this rock I will build my church." Who's church is it? Jesus'. Who will build it? Jesus. Not you, not me. Not Paul, not Peter. Not evangelist. Jesus will build his church upon "this rock."

"And the gates of hell will not overpower it." I left the footnote link in above. Go see what the gates of Hades are. They are not physical or spiritual gates. They are metaphorical gates. More to the point, as the footnote points out, it is a metonymy. They represent the power of something, in this case hell. Well, hell (Hades) in the NT is equivalent to Sheol in the OT. Sheol is a prison for the unrighteous.

So if the glued butts in your church are unrighteous, then perhaps you have a point.

But, look again: "the gates of hell will not overpower it" What is "it"? Well, the church, obviously. Who or what is doing the overpowering. Well, that's simple: the gates. Or the "power of death" as the footnote points out.

So it is the "power of death" that shall not overpower "the church."

No one in this verse is trying to overpower a gate. Nice try, but wrong.

You see, the locking up of Satan, and the silencing of the power of death, come much later (unless you are an amillennialist*) in time. So they are still trying to overpower the church and stop it.

But you stick with your butt glue.

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* to be clear, even for the amillennialist all that comes later; they are simply wrong.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Oh, that's right. You have your own erroneous interpretation of gates and overpowering.

Let's review:

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[u] will not overpower it.​

Ok. Who is Jesus "telling." Jesus is telling to Peter. What's he say? "On this rock I will build my church." Who's church is it? Jesus'. Who will build it? Jesus. Not you, not me. Not Paul, not Peter. Not evangelist. Jesus will build his church upon "this rock."

"And the gates of hell will not overpower it." I left the footnote link in above. Go see what the gates of Hades are. They are not physical or spiritual gates. They are metaphorical gates. More to the point, as the footnote points out, it is a metonymy. They represent the power of something, in this case hell. Well, hell (Hades) in the NT is equivalent to Sheol in the OT. Sheol is a prison for the unrighteous.

So if the glued butts in your church are unrighteous, then perhaps you have a point.

But, look again: "the gates of hell will not overpower it" What is "it"? Well, the church, obviously. Who or what is doing the overpowering. Well, that's simple: the gates. Or the "power of death" as the footnote points out.

So it is the "power of death" that shall not overpower "the church."

No one in this verse is trying to overpower a gate. Nice try, but wrong.

You see, the locking up of Satan, and the silencing of the power of death, come much later (unless you are an amillennialist*) in time. So they are still trying to overpower the church and stop it.

But you stick with your butt glue.

---
* to be clear, even for the amillennialist all that comes later; they are simply wrong.
You willingly miss my point. That's what has happened to you. Gates do not move.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
You willingly miss scriptures point. It isn't a physical gate.
It’sa gate Bob. I know what a gate is. You seem to need a review.

Ensconcing yourself in denial is not me missing the point of scripture. Jesus didn’t say, “The lies of hell will not prevail.” He actually said gates. Gates don’t move.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Why do you divert, Pete?

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[u] will not overpower it.​

"Gates of hell will not overpower it."

Why would a gate be trying to overpower anything? Even you say they don't move.

So why is a gate trying to overpower it?
 

Tallen

Well-known member
Why do you divert, Pete?

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[u] will not overpower it.​

"Gates of hell will not overpower it."

Why would a gate be trying to overpower anything? Even you say they don't move.

So why is a gate trying to overpower it?
Was Peter a rock? 😉
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Why do you divert, Pete?

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[u] will not overpower it.​

"Gates of hell will not overpower it."

Why would a gate be trying to overpower anything? Even you say they don't move.

So why is a gate trying to overpower it?
Yeah, no…the NIV sucks as a translation. The verb is κατισχύω…katischuo . The verb has a suffix, kata which means against and ischuo which means “ to be strong, have power”. Gates didn’t overpower They withstand assault. You don’t need to take my word for it. Words mean things. Gates don’t move. And they cannot prevail against a church that is on the offensive, not glued to pews.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Yeah, no…the NIV sucks as a translation.
Interesting, since I don't use NIV. It sucks. Try NET and you'll be right on target.

The verb is κατισχύω…katischuo . The verb has a suffix, kata which means against and ischuo which means “ to be strong, have power”.
In this you are correct.

Gates didn’t overpower
And yet that is exactly what this verse says. Well, at least until you swap out the subject of the final phrase. "Church" is NEVER the subject in verse 18. It is the object of the phrase it is in. In the final phrase "gates of hell" is the subject, overpower is the verb. The fact that this subject (if you think it is a gate) cannot do the verb should tell you something. "Gates of hell" is referring to the "power of death" or the "power of Sheol".

They withstand assault. You don’t need to take my word for it. Words mean things. Gates don’t move. And they cannot prevail against a church that is on the offensive, not glued to pews.
Who cares about gates. There are things called idioms. "Gates of hades" is an idiom.

It does not reference a gate. You need to go study Jewish tradition on idioms, and what this term means to them -- and what it means to Jesus and who he was speaking to -- NOT an English translation of a bible.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Interesting, since I don't use NIV. It sucks. Try NET and you'll be right on target.


In this you are correct.


And yet that is exactly what this verse says. Well, at least until you swap out the subject of the final phrase. "Church" is NEVER the subject in verse 18. It is the object of the phrase it is in. In the final phrase "gates of hell" is the subject, overpower is the verb. The fact that this subject (if you think it is a gate) cannot do the verb should tell you something. "Gates of hell" is referring to the "power of death" or the "power of Sheol".
You realize you have to change the noun "gate" so it conforms to your misconception, right? Not a great idea for the translator...unless they want gates to move, so they can remain in the pew and not be harmed.

Who cares about gates. There are things called idioms. "Gates of hades" is an idiom.

It does not reference a gate. You need to go study Jewish tradition on idioms, and what this term means to them -- and what it means to Jesus and who he was speaking to -- NOT an English translation of a bible.
Not an idiom, Bob...You need to look up the term or stop sparring with a linguist. An idiom is an expression that has meaning in one language that cannot be directly translated into another. (a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words.) It's when you have to chop a tree down in English before you can chop it up. It's when to write something down in English but you have to write it up in Swedish and vice versa. Raining cats and dogs can be an idiom, because no cat or dog is involved. To translate the expression into French, I have to find a comparable French idiom...it rains floods in French....it's "a wolf's cold out". In this expression gates are gates in every language...and "hell" remains as well. The Swedes call it "hell's gates" instead of using the prepositional phrase...but it means the same thing. Gates retain prisoners...the church shreds the gates and sets captives free. In any case, gates don't move.

It's OK though. You've got Ted with you...so you must be right. :eek: Y'all have very moving demonic attack gates.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Must've been ready to rain cats and dogs... or maybe, actions speak louder than words. I'm sure he wasn't trying to pull our legs. 😉🙄😂
Nice job, Ted. Unlike the gates of hell, these are all idioms that I'd be forced to find a workaround for if I were interpreting the speaker who uses them.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
You realize you have to change the noun "gate" so it conforms to your misconception, right? Not a great idea for the translator...unless they want gates to move, so they can remain in the pew and not be harmed.
The noun is an idiom, Pete. "Gate of hades." Even if we go with your error that there is a Gate -- a physical gate, a gate that binds, -- you're still left with the verb: overpower. The gate, in this sentence is the thing doing the overpowering (if we read gate as you wish). You are right, gates do not overpower. But yet the sentence tells us just that.

When you admit that "gates of hell" is an idiom then it make much more sense. Death, or the power of Death, shall not overpower the Church.

Not an idiom, Bob...You need to look up the term or stop sparring with a linguist.
You spelled narcissist wrong. And as a linguist, you aren't that good.

Yes, it is an idiom. Look up Hebrew sites that speak on this phrase. They just might know what is an idiom in their speech.

An idiom is an expression that has meaning in one language that cannot be directly translated into another....
And here we don't need the rest of the gibberish, because an idiom is not defined by a different language. Whether an idiom can be translated directly or not is neither here nor there.

According to Elisabeth Piirainen, a German linguist and scholar "the phrase 'to get on someone’s nerves' exists in no less than 57 European languages; to 'live in/be in an ivory tower' exists in at least 35 European languages and others — and to 'shed crocodile tears' occurs in 45 European languages, but also Arabic, Swahili, Persian, various Indian languages, Chinese, Mongolian and more."

Whoops! Out the door went defining an idiom by their ability to be translated to a foreign language.

Gates retain prisoners...the church shreds the gates and sets captives free. In any case, gates don't move.
Nowhere does Matt 16:18 say this. It clearly says that "the gates of Hades will not overpower [the Church]." The gates of hades are doing (or not doing in this case) the overpowering. NOT the other way around.

You're a linguist??? Pfffft.


It's OK though. You've got Ted with you...so you must be right. :eek: Y'all have very moving demonic attack gates.
Regardless of the ad homs, I have basic sentence structure on my side.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I almost feel the charismatic movement needs to be reborn.
Except, of course that the "Charismatic Movement" was what the Charismatic Outpouring (the actual revival time of refreshing 1965 thru 1978 or so) degenerated into when the actual revival was OVER. Folks who were in the OUTPOURING had two choices: Try to "keep the revival going" (which was impossible) as the "Charismatic movement", or re-unite with the churches they came out of (like I did - back into the Assemblies of God). The Pentecostal revival (1900 - 1914, or so) spawned a number of Denominational systems, the largest of which was the Assemblies of God, which "Shook out" the "Oneness Pentecostal" lunatic fringe in 1916. The Charismatic outpouring, however didn't generate denominations in the same way, but acted to De-legalize the denominations that charismatics flowed bnack into when the revival ended. The Assemblies of God WERE a highly legalistic clothesline holy "one strike and you're OUT" bunch in the '60s, but really aren't any more in 2022.

Tongues and interpretation are still pretty common in our church, but the Pastor almost always interprets ("safer that way").
 
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Tallen

Well-known member
Not an idiom, Bob...You need to look up the term or stop sparring with a linguist.
Or perhaps..., a High School French teacher with a bloated ego. 😉

Start here: https://www.amazon.com/Idioms-Bible...ocphy=9052937&hvtargid=pla-464331006420&psc=1

It's OK though. You've got Ted with you...so you must be right. :eek: Y'all have very moving demonic attack gates.
There you go again..., thinking if you mention me you've poisoned the well. And this after you've denied, disparaged and deminished the real linguist in other conversations.
 
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