you are yet to deal with his point... My point is no mortal has the right to assure another they are saved.
Once saved always saved=untruth
- Thread starter keiw
- Start date
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Jesus never knew them; Matthew 7:21-23. Ironically it is your teaching that we should run from as you've twisted His word.
Of course, he does. Is there anyone Jesus does not know? You have to remember Jesus was making an illustration.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
The point keiw is making is that no person can claim that another is saved because in the case of those who prophesied and cast out devils in his name believed that they were saved but they were not. Jesus said those who endure to the end shall be saved. "Shall be" are the operative words.
So the question to you is...can you know if another person is saved?
The only humans on earth doing powerful works and the such in Jesus name are told they are christian. They obviously believe they are saved. And many blind guides assure workers of iniquity they are saved.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
I'm not responsible for what they tell them.
There are hypocrites, tares, wolves, false brethren, goats, dogs, swine.
I'm not responsible for what blind guides do or say.
But I do believe the words of Christ. He said "I never knew them..."
Jim harmon
Active member
What is a transgressor ?
One who transgresses.
Josheb
Well-known member
Hmm....
Am I to understand one line from something said under the covenant of Law is argued to have effect on the covenant of Christ when the covenant of Law has been annulled? That is supposed to prove God will assure Hi salvation when He saves someone? That argument is faulty in several ways.
Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.
Galatians 3:17
What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
Hebrews 7:11-22 ESV
Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’” This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
The Christ covenant is better, and it is guaranteed.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
A person building on Christ as his/her foundation may lose all his works, everything, but still be saved.
Jim harmon
Active member
Is there a difference between transgressor and a sinner ?
None that I know of. Do you have a question?
Jim harmon
Active member
Must be .
transgressors and sinners will be punished together so the word says so there is a difference.
sinner = one that has never accepted the covenant.
transgressor = one who has accepted but breaks the covenant.
There for OSAS is not .
Since our salvation was not initiated by us, was not bought by us, and is not held by us, how can it be ours to lose?
Rather than ask if man can lose his salvation, you should be asking if Christ is able to lose any the Father has given Him or is unable to keep us from falling.
You seem to misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.
You talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.
That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.
If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.
I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.
To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.
Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!
Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?
But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.
Let's start with the most obvious:
John 6:35-40 says 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
So, here we have three promises:
a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.
b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him
That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?
c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.
Does God now break His promises?
And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...
Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.
Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?
Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.
Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?
1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.
Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?
Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.
In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?
John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?
Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?
John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?
Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?
1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?
It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.
Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?
Jim harmon
Active member
A covenant is only good if both parties keep their end of the covenant or bargain .
Those things you have posted is HIS side of the covenant
which HE will keep without a doubt .
Our side is simple , keep his commandments.
Seems you have the understanding we are to do nothing and
we have lost our freewill .
Only one thing HE will force on you is JUDGEMENT.
Only thing I can find that was changed from the old to New Covenant
was HE will write the laws on our heart .
What did Jesus say ?
Matthew 5:28 (KJV)
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:8 (KJV)
Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
All about cleansing the heart , striving for a pure heart .
an every day job , our responsibility.
Really not new at all .
Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine HEART , and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deuteronomy 11:18 (KJV)
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your HEART and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
Moses displeased the LORD once and was denied to enter the promised land only behold it with his eyes .
Balaam went against GODs word . HE sent an Angel to slay him .
The unnamed prophet failed to follow HIS word and a lion killed him .
Anyone who thinks they are above these are deceived.
Romans 11:21 (KJV)
For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Do you understand that Jesus was speaking to people who were still under the law, and so He preached the law to them?
You're holding born again believers to the same standard as people who were under the law, when Paul says in Romans that we're no longer under the law.
Again, if your denial of the Biblical doctrine of eternal security is true, then how is this good news?
I'm sorry, but you're no Christian and do not understand the Gospel.
Jim harmon
Active member
Sounds as though you don’t understand ABOVE the law or UNDER the law really means .
Jesus said
Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The laws still exist.
Just as wrong to murder today as it was when Cain killed Abel.
OSAS is just another deception .
To cause you to be filled with pride .
Mark 7:
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, PRIDE, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Take heed how you build your wall of faith.
Ezekiel 13:11
Say unto them which daub [it] with untempered [morter], that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend [it].
Or the house built upon the sand . Same thing .
Sure you are familiar with
1 Corinthians 9:24 (KJV)
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Hebrews 12:1 (KJV)
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
OSAS is declaring the race is over , not so .
When our last breath leaves our body , then the race is over .
And I just provided you with a host of Biblical evidence that Christ's promises to keep our salvation are trustworthy.
Just the opposite. If you rightly understand it, it should fill you with humility and gratitude.
No, it isn't. It's declaring, "It is finished!"
One must build on the real Jesus. There are 4 different ones being taught on earth. And no matter what--any can fall from Grace.
Jim harmon
Active member
You posted HIS side of the bargain, HIS side is not in question.
Where do you get that you can not lose a FREE gift ?
My dad gave me a 22 rifle ( a gift ) .
If I had misused it I knew I would not have that FREE GIFT anymore.
Finished means it has come to an end .
What ever it is .
Do you throw your common sense away when you read the word ?
Josheb
Well-known member
That would necessarily require either God to allow such an occurrence or the falling one to manifest a God-overpowering force. Neither is explicitly found in the Bible. Those who believe they can lose their salvation arrive at that position only by deducing God's allowance, or God limiting Himself. It is always and everywhere only an inferential position, never one explicitly stated in scripture.
I am open to reading the verse that explicitly states either "God has limited Himself" or "God allows Himself to let go," even if it is said in different wording.
However, since I can provide explicit statements (like the ones already provided) and I do not think the opposite is true, I'll stick with the sovereign God position of His assuring salvation. I will go with what is explicitly stated over implicit readings and inferential readings every time.
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Let me also suggest this idea "any can fall from grace" is a red herring. It's a red herring because it is not from "grace" we "fall." Grace isn't the issue; it's not the germane concern. Those who argue grace are moving the goalposts away from God's character and other attributes. If I were to say, "Any can fall from God's sovereign and almighty power to save," that would have a completely different meaning than "any can fall from grace." If I were to reword it to say, "Any finite creature can overpower the Infinite and Almighty God and force God to let go of His sovereign will," that would be nonsense. The created creature cannot outforce the force of God. Limiting the matter of God guaranteeing His covenant of salvation found in Christ to grace is a mistake. the gospel is the power of God to save (Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:16), not merely the grace of God to be saved. Yes, verses like 1 Cor. 15:2 do make conditional statements about holding firmly but they are eschatological, not soteriological. It is always a mistake the eschatological for the soteriological. Sometimes the two overlap in practice or principle but not as often as many wrongly imagine. Remember the first century Christians were living in the last days. They expected certain end times events to occur in their lifetime. Confusing or conflating those conditions with eternal salvation is a mistake.
This is one of the reasons it pays to prioritize the explicit over the implied, and to take all of scripture as a whole and not selective readings. God hasn't actually promised anything with any assurance if it possible for the creature to wrest or otherwise usurp the Creator, the finite frustrate the Infinite.
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Let me suggest a third way to consider this. The entire account of God's revelation to humanity is about Christ. It's not about us. It is about God's will and God's purpose in His resurrected Son. God will necessarily accomplish His will, His purpose, His goal for having created in the first place. The ends are not possibilities or probabilities, they are all a definitely occurring eventuality. Christ did not come, live, die, and resurrect fruitlessly. There are people going to be saved. God knows who those people are, and He knows who those people are prior to His having created a single atom. Notice what I said. I did NOT say He knew who they were going to be. That would be the wrong way to think of time and cause-and-effect. That would be a human-centric view. Time is a structure of creation, not something in which God exists. He made time. It didn't exist before Him. Even to say "God knows past, present, and future all at once" is a bit misguided because He views time from outside of time, not from within time.
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One more way to look at this. Consider what is being said in Hebrews 6:4-6 regarding the impossibility of crucifying Christ a second time. This text plainly states some have "fallen away." It equally clearly states it's impossible to repent and re-crucify Christ. It also just as clearly states they shame Christ. Is it literally possible for the creature to shame the Creator? Do we have such a power over the all-powerful Creator? Do we have the power to make worthless the cost God paid? Do we have the power to make worthless the blood of Christ? No! Some who disagree might appeal to the aforementioned arguments, "God allows this to happen," or "God limits Himself," but to that I will again reply, "Show me the explicitly stated text declaring such a thing." Absent any such clear statement we rely upon the ontology of God, NOT the ontology of human flesh. God is sovereign and we are not, and God does not make worthless the price He paid, the blood of His own Son. The "any can fall from grace" argument amounts to God going to the bank with His Son's broken body and saying, "I want My money back. You can have the sinner back," keeping in mind God is the Bank to which He takes His own Son after having bought the sinner and brought the sinner to Himself.
Romans 8:28-39
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day log; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered." But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If that last line is to be taken literally then NOTHING can separate us from God's love, not even falling from grace. The reason I cite this passage is because Paul is appealing to the imagery of the courtroom. The Judge is Jesus. The Plaintiff is Jesus. The Prosecutor is Jesus. The Defense Attorney is also Jesus. But most importantly, Jesus is the Defendant! The Accused is also Jesus! Praise God! Christ has taken it upon himself to sit where we belong. He now sits in all positions interceding on our behalf. To say, "any can fall from grace," necessarily means Christ's intercession is impotent, not all mighty in all cases. God works all things for good in the lives of those who love Him according to His purpose (not ours) and nothing can separate the bondservant of Christ, the "beloved of God," the saints, from the love of God that is in Christ. not even the bondservant's fall from grace. God grace is not competing against God's sovereign will, sovereign purpose, and sovereign might. The power of God does not compete against, fight against, or in any other way conflict with the power of God. This is axiomatic and Christ is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:24).
Therefore, when we speak of those who might possibly could lose their salvation, we can say that only from within the very limited understanding of time that comes from the creature living solely within time. It is myopic. Those who are saved from God's externally existing perspective are saved. They are not going to be saved, they are saved. There is no "before," "now," and "later." That's a purely human experience.
Therefore, not only is it misguided to view salvation solely as a product of grace and not also of sovereign almighty power, it is also misguided to look at salvation temporally. The only way those things are missed is by the human-centric finite reading of scripture. On all occasions that you read scripture from the position of "almightyness" a completely different understanding ensues. Creation is not a contingency plan. Creation was created with a divinely willful purpose, and that purpose will occur.
Any who choose to practice a sin( work iniquity) falls from grace-Matt 7:22-23--The OT is filled with the Israelites falling over and over. they lost Gods grace when they did.