Once Saved--Always Saved?

I need more information here from you if we continue this discussion. Are you saying that a believer can murder or rape, "at times" and still achieve salvation? I don't think that giving up murder, rape, or any sin is impossible at all especially with the assistance of an all-mighty God.

Thanks, but I'm still left wondering if he told you that a sinner can be saved. If so, then can all kinds of sin attend a saved Christian such as adultery and theft? Or are some kinds of sin strictly endangering a person's salvation?
While a true believer will not (typically) be guilty of committing horrible/gross sins, it is still possible. King David is an example of a believer who did so (he committed both adultery and murder) and was forgiven and restored by God when he confessed his sins to Him .. e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13 or 2 Samuel 12:1-15, and he neither died nor lost his salvation .. e.g. Psalm 51 (as a bit of an aside, I am looking into the interesting fact that God simply chose to forgive him of those horrible sins .. e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13, and that w/o an animal sacrifice, because such a sacrifice simply would not do/was of no value for someone who had sinned so gravely and intentionally as David had, that only a broken and contrite heart would make such forgiveness possible, and create a situation where God would again be pleased with David's burnt offerings and sacrifices).

What a believer is far more often guilty of are sins like impatience, selfishness, frustration with others, failing to love others as we need to/as God commands us to .. cf Ephesians 4:15; 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 (and other kinds of sins of omission). Can any believer TRULY say that he/she loves the Lord with ALL of their heart, ALL of their mind, ALL of their soul, ALL of their strength, and love their neighbors as themselves, perfectly, 24/7, from the moment that they were saved until the moment that they die, because to do one iota less than that is to sin.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - here is one of my very favorite Christian quotes that speaks to this (from theologian/pastor Charles H. Spurgeon). And one from John Newton as well (the author/composer of Amazing Grace), whose expressed sentiment is one that I believe rings very true for me as well.


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172409759.nMOvQCl4.JohnNewton_edtobe.jpg
 
You're not answering my questions. I can only then conclude that you simply cannot squarely face the issues. You are sinning, and you want to continue doing so hoping to be free of judgment nevertheless. Personally, I don't miss my sins one bit. The drugs and the prostitutes at best brought me a bit of fleeting pleasure. I'm happy being free of sin, and I hope you can be free of sin and happy too. It can be done.
I did my best to answer the points that you made, not the questions, because you did not ask any in the portion of your quote that I was replying to above (in post #59). Quite frankly, I don't know how to say what needs to be said any clearer than I already have.

Please try to be patient with me and also realize that I may never be able to make my replies to you in the exact manner that you would like me to, as I cannot read your mind ;)

You asked me a question at the very bottom of your post and I just replied to that in my last post (post #61), as least in part (once I have heard back from you about what I said, I may have more to say .. Dv).
 
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When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures.
Addressing the OP,
Correct, when one is BORN AGAIN, one cannot be UNBORN, just as the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews asked,"How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" answer, John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

as in the physical world you can't go back into the womb, once here we're here until we die, or the Lord jesus returns. same in the Spirit, for GOD makes no Mistakes. he don't abort either.... or make a MISTAKE.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Also, addressing "SIN" after one is SAVED..... answer, 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT VERSE AGAIN) 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

and if one forgot a sin, and didn't confess it, 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Wouldn’t “remaining steadfast in the Gospel” be considered “what we do”?

It's not what every Christian does.

So many resort to "explaining away" apostasies with the "never was saved card."

Logically, that works out to no one knowing if one day they're find out they weren't saved.

No, we can leave Christ, it's clear.
 
Do you believe that salvation is probation and that eternal life is temporary life and that Jesus is a revolving door?

I believe the word "if" has an actual meaning.

You can use all the silly little depictions to try to make it sound cheesy all you want, it doesn't change its meaning.
 
I believe the word "if" has an actual meaning.

You can use all the silly little depictions to try to make it sound cheesy all you want, it doesn't change its meaning.
Sure "if" has an actual meaning as a conditional clause which brings confirmation to one position or the other.
 
No, you are assuming I am assuming Paul was correct.

The alternative is that Paul was sinning by bearing false witness and YOU then still have the same problem: one of the apostles sinned after hs regeneration.

Then Paul and Peter were not saved and nether are you.


There is a more scripturally consistent alternative.

Romans 8:26-39
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us...... I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NOTHING can separate you from the love of God found in His Son if you have been covered in the Son's shed blood. Nothing. Not even your own post-regeneration sins.

Otherwise, you, Unknown Soldier, render impotent the work of the supposedly almighty God. You make your post-regeneration sin more mighty than God. So consider what David and I have posted and stop treating us like we're your adversaries.

2 Peter 1:1-9
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Note that text plainly states, "former sins." It does not say, "current sins," or "future sins." You and I were cleansed from past sins, and grace-given, Spirit-driven confession, repentance, amends, forgiveness, and ongoing reconciliation keep us that way. Flesh-driven alternatives merit nothing salvifically.

James 5:13-16
Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

If any among the body of Christ have sinned.... those sins will be forgiven. Therefore, those in the body of Christ - those who are already redeemed, regenerate and indwelt are to confess their sins to one another. There would be no need for confession and repentance if we never sinned after regeneration.

Regeneration would be weak if another sin could eradicate its effect. God's work would be fruitless if another sin were all it takes to prevent Him from saving the sinner after regeneration and indwelling.
One of my favorite for OSAS:

Psalms 89:26-34
 
One of my favorite for OSAS:

Psalms 89:26-34
That would be more convincing had God said, "I have....." instead of "I will....." but I get how the prophetic nature of that passage can be read as OSAS.


Let me (again) appeal to the creation because not only does scripture start with the very loaded statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," but it also tells us God made plants and animals to produce "according to their own kind." From that first set of declarations scripture proceeds and unfolds to define and clarify God's work(s) and what produce and fruit-bearing means. Jesus is particularly hyperbolic in many places discussing these concepts in the gospels. A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears good fruit. Well-meaning Christians all too often read the believer as the tree, but that is an egregious mistake. Jesus is the tree, the vine, etc. Is Jesus good or bad? If Jesus is good then he necessarily bears good fruit, but that fruit may be 30%, or 60%, or 100% productive. When he speaks of unproductive "branches" he is implicitly talking about branches that aren't actually his produce. Jesus does not produce bad branches or bad fruit.

If the analogy(-ies) Jesus himself uses are to be consistent, then either Jesus can bear bad branches/fruit or the bad branches/fruit were never from him in the first places. The first option seriously compromises sound Christology so it's not actually tenable scripturally, logically, or doctrinally. The problem is people try to read passages like John 15 or Luke 6 in only the immediate context of the immediate passage and neglect the fact Jesus is appealing all the way back to creation, to the beginning.

So if a person really is a branch or fruit of Christ then he will be saved because that is what Christ does. He saves. Once saved you will always be saved. The problem is the poseurs, those who claim to know Christ but are not in fact known by him (or His Father).

The other prominent protest against this is the notion God limited Himself and predicated salvation on the fleshly choice of the sinner. Aside from the fact there is no such scripture upon which to substantiate that position (it is always and everywhere solely inferential), and aside from the fact it leads to potentially negating the work of God and Christ making worthless the shed blood, and aside from the fact it creates an unheard-of intermediate state of knowing and being known by God and being indwelt with the Spirit but then none of that, aside from all of those problems, it neglects the simple fact Jesus was foreknown before the creation of the world for a specific set of purposes and he bears the fruit assigned by His Father when God created creation.

Once a person is actually saved then s/he will be saved. Always.
 
That would be more convincing had God said, "I have....." instead of "I will....." but I get how the prophetic nature of that passage can be read as OSAS.


Let me (again) appeal to the creation because not only does scripture start with the very loaded statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," but it also tells us God made plants and animals to produce "according to their own kind." From that first set of declarations scripture proceeds and unfolds to define and clarify God's work(s) and what produce and fruit-bearing means. Jesus is particularly hyperbolic in many places discussing these concepts in the gospels. A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears good fruit. Well-meaning Christians all too often read the believer as the tree, but that is an egregious mistake. Jesus is the tree, the vine, etc. Is Jesus good or bad? If Jesus is good then he necessarily bears good fruit, but that fruit may be 30%, or 60%, or 100% productive. When he speaks of unproductive "branches" he is implicitly talking about branches that aren't actually his produce. Jesus does not produce bad branches or bad fruit.

If the analogy(-ies) Jesus himself uses are to be consistent, then either Jesus can bear bad branches/fruit or the bad branches/fruit were never from him in the first places. The first option seriously compromises sound Christology so it's not actually tenable scripturally, logically, or doctrinally. The problem is people try to read passages like John 15 or Luke 6 in only the immediate context of the immediate passage and neglect the fact Jesus is appealing all the way back to creation, to the beginning.

So if a person really is a branch or fruit of Christ then he will be saved because that is what Christ does. He saves. Once saved you will always be saved. The problem is the poseurs, those who claim to know Christ but are not in fact known by him (or His Father).

The other prominent protest against this is the notion God limited Himself and predicated salvation on the fleshly choice of the sinner. Aside from the fact there is no such scripture upon which to substantiate that position (it is always and everywhere solely inferential), and aside from the fact it leads to potentially negating the work of God and Christ making worthless the shed blood, and aside from the fact it creates an unheard-of intermediate state of knowing and being known by God and being indwelt with the Spirit but then none of that, aside from all of those problems, it neglects the simple fact Jesus was foreknown before the creation of the world for a specific set of purposes and he bears the fruit assigned by His Father when God created creation.

Once a person is actually saved then s/he will be saved. Always.
Thanks.
 
So if a person really is a branch or fruit of Christ then he will be saved because that is what Christ does. He saves. Once saved you will always be saved. The problem is the poseurs, those who claim to know Christ but are not in fact known by him (or His Father).

There's serious problems with this logic.

If we were to say by virtue of a branch being in Christ, every single thing the branch produces must necessarily be only from Christ, then when the branches sin—and we all sin—Christ has to necessarily be the source of that sin.

Branches are connected to another source. They are not, literally the source. What this means is, the branch has some independent mechanisms for facilitating its source. The branch, itself, determines how much fruit comes through it.

We do not blame the vine for all its branches produces. If I thought Jesus was the source of how Christians have treated me, I'd think Christ was cruel and unloving. Those branches are responsible for their lack of fruit, by stopping Christ's flow.
 
One of my favorite for OSAS:

Psalms 89:26-34

I urge you to seriously consider this verse:

"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.

But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!"

1 Sam. 2:30.
 
There's serious problems with this logic.

If we were to say by virtue of a branch being in Christ, every single thing the branch produces must necessarily be only from Christ, then when the branches sin—and we all sin—Christ has to necessarily be the source of that sin.

Branches are connected to another source. They are not, literally the source. What this means is, the branch has some independent mechanisms for facilitating its source. The branch, itself, determines how much fruit comes through it.

We do not blame the vine for all its branches produces. If I thought Jesus was the source of how Christians have treated me, I'd think Christ was cruel and unloving. Those branches are responsible for their lack of fruit, by stopping Christ's flow.
how on earth could Jesus the Sinless and Holy One be the " source " of a believers sin ?

thats some serious conflating going on dizerner.
 
I urge you to seriously consider this verse:

"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.

But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!"

1 Sam. 2:30.
Different covenant. The children in Psalms 89 are Christ's sheep. It's the Davidic covenant
 
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