Once Saved--Always Saved?

Josheb

Well-known member
There's serious problems with this logic.

If we were to say by virtue of a branch being in Christ, every single thing the branch produces must necessarily be only from Christ, then when the branches sin—and we all sin—Christ has to necessarily be the source of that sin.
1) Why would I say that?

2) Nope.

3) That's not a problem of my previously stated logic...... because a) Jesus specifically states the fruit-bearing isn't consistent and the epistolary b) the epistolary further clarifies the existing imperfection of Christ's branches, c) sin is the pre-existing (inherent) state of the branches prior to becoming branches of Christ (not a consequence of being a branch), and d) the epistolary consistently does this while treating the sinning branches as true, authentic branches (even though many reading those letters probably weren't).
Branches are connected to another source. They are not, literally the source.
Never said they were. If you're adding to my commentary then I agree. If that argument is supposed to reflect my post then it's a straw man.
What this means is, the branch has some independent mechanisms for facilitating its source.
No, they have a dependent mechanism....

And the branch does not "facilitate its source." The word "facilitate" means "make easier." Perhaps something else was intended but the branch does not make the source easier, the source makes the branch's work (fruit) easier. Take care not to put the cart before the horse. We are saved by grace through faith for works that were already planned in advance for us to perform. The branch is not the facilitator, the tree or vine is. Apart from him we can do nothing.
The branch, itself, determines how much fruit comes through it.
Hmmm.... the branch determines how much fruit it bears even though Jesus explicitly states 1) those remaining in him and him in them, and 2) apart from him nothing can be done. Scripture disagrees with that statement.
We do not blame the vine for all its branches produces. If I thought Jesus was the source of how Christians have treated me, I'd think Christ was cruel and unloving. Those branches are responsible for their lack of fruit, by stopping Christ's flow.
Non sequitur. Not a single word of that has anything to do with what I previously posted and if it is thought otherwise then I will simply direct you back to a more thorough and contemplative reading of what was posted. I'll also add this: the context for what I said, that a tree bears fruit according to its kind, was almost completely ignored. The a priori condition of sin was leveraged to contest this point, but it did so in antithesis ignoring the substance of the point. The question is not, "Does Christ bear sinful fruit?" but "Does Christ bear righteous fruit?" or perhaps, "Does Christ bear righteous fruit from a previously diseased branch?" and the idea of inserting and "only" in there where none belongs is bad form.

Apart from him we can do nothing. Yet we, the redeemed and regenerate, do often do nothing. We do it apart from him. And the salient part is Jesus did not predicate the fruit he bears in a person's life on the sinful fleshly will or act. He did not deny its existence (he often spoke about in it radical and extreme terms) but he never predicated his work on any of it.
 

Exeter

Active member
Dare we agree that the faithless and unfaithful are not chosen to accompany Christ . . .

Rev 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
What is the condition of the covenant of grace?
Having God's Spirit and the birth only He can give.


Romans 8:12
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There is no covenant between God and a person who doesn't have His Spirit.
 
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dingoling.

Well-known member
Many of us Christians have pondered the possibility of our losing our salvation. I would like to briefly argue that no, we cannot lose our salvation. To see why, it's important to understand that a Christian is more than a "believer"; a Christian is a steadfast actor and a thinker as well. When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures. We can no longer anger God to the point at which He would need to punish us for sin. In other words if we are genuinely saved we are no longer in danger of God's wrath. The reason why is that we no longer deserve to be punished because we have been fundamentally changed. We no longer think or act sinfully. If we did think sinfully or act sinfully, then we would still deserve God's judgment which is not what salvation is! So if you are saved, then you are saved eternally and eternally freed from sin. Those who sin such as those who are revilers, liars, extortioners, thieves, or drunkards are not saved or at least not saved yet. To be saved, you must "put on the new person" giving up forever the sins of your past. If you fail to do so, then you won't inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and you are deluded to think otherwise. As Jesus told us: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
I think Paul's statement in I Corinthians 10:1-13 clearly indicates against OSAS.
 

bluedog1us

Well-known member
I think Paul's statement in I Corinthians 10:1-13 clearly indicates against OSAS.
We are kept by God's power, not our own, if we have truly been born again. 1 Peter 1:5
And if someone can all of a sudden start worshipping idols, they were never born again. Look at King David and what he did, and God said that David was a man after His (God's) own heart. David repented, the Isralites were not saved and never repented. That is why God almost wiped them off the face of the earth several times. Plus we are under a different covenant of grace, they were under a covenant of works!
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
People misunderstand and conflate a rejection of grace for an ability to apostatize.

It is not "out-sinning" the Cross, or being under a system of performance one fails to meet, that brings a loss of salvation.

It is a willful rejection of Christ and his grace, a deliberate choice to renounce faith in the gift of God.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
People misunderstand and conflate a rejection of grace for an ability to apostatize.

It is not "out-sinning" the Cross, or being under a system of performance one fails to meet, that brings a loss of salvation.

It is a willful rejection of Christ and his grace, a deliberate choice to renounce faith in the gift of God.
Who does that? Were they hypocrites who pretended to be Christians? Or maybe mentally ill?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Many of us Christians have pondered the possibility of our losing our salvation. I would like to briefly argue that no, we cannot lose our salvation. To see why, it's important to understand that a Christian is more than a "believer"; a Christian is a steadfast actor and a thinker as well. When we are saved, truly saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This regeneration transforms us forever into new creatures. We can no longer anger God to the point at which He would need to punish us for sin. In other words if we are genuinely saved we are no longer in danger of God's wrath. The reason why is that we no longer deserve to be punished because we have been fundamentally changed. We no longer think or act sinfully. If we did think sinfully or act sinfully, then we would still deserve God's judgment which is not what salvation is! So if you are saved, then you are saved eternally and eternally freed from sin. Those who sin such as those who are revilers, liars, extortioners, thieves, or drunkards are not saved or at least not saved yet. To be saved, you must "put on the new person" giving up forever the sins of your past. If you fail to do so, then you won't inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and you are deluded to think otherwise. As Jesus told us: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Amen! The Bible teaches Perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance of the Saints from the scriptures.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).



And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life”
(John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know thed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).



There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
In that case a person can be saved and still go to hell. Does that make sense to you? How can you be saved only to be damned?

Nowhere is salvation considered something "permanent" in Scripture.

It is a process and a progress—being saved, will be saved.

Else, no warnings would be necessary, really they would be misleading and lying to God's people.

I guarantee you that "almost" saved people who merely "heard" the Gospel are not pouring over God's warnings and taking them to heart.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Amen! The Bible teaches Perseverance of the Saints.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard (Col. 1:23 NKJ)

If any form of eternal security were true, continuing in the faith would be the only option, and so this passage would be completely misleading.
 
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