One more time - Mormons' belief in how they believe in One God using the Bible only

Aaron32

Well-known member
Yes.... The "resolution" is simple. Simply STOP bringing up topics about "Christianity", since they are OFF-TOPIC.

YOU are the one who keeps BRINGING UP "Christian belief".

For instance, every time we try to talk about "only one God" existing, YOU bring up the Trinity.

Jews believe in "only one God". But they don't believe in the Trinity.
Muslims believe in "only one God". But they don't believe in the Trinity.
Oneness Pentecostals believe in "only one God". But they don't believe in the Trinity.

When we bring up Deut. 4:35,39, or Isa. 43-46, you run to Psalm 82.
When we bring up Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:5, 11:5-6, etc., Mormons (not you, but others) run away to James 2.

You don't "address" the passages we bring up, you instead say, "We like these passages better than those".
Is there a reason I should ignore Psalms 82, or James 2? They are part of the Bible, right?

I expect them to see that when a verse says, "only one god exists", it MEANS "only one god exists", and doesn't mean, "many gods exist".

Words have meaning.
Agreed. Words do have meaning. Sometimes a word can have more than one meaning. Sometimes words have imply a different concept when acknowledging the context.
But to your challenge, let's stick strictly to what the Bible says.

One God
Deut. 4:35,39 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."
Isa. 43-46 - Not sure which verse to quote here.

Given in context, these statements were given to Israel. They were not spoken to the world but his covenant people.
Mormons believe "[Jesus] was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New." He is our Creator, Redeemer, and Judge.

Jesus/Jehovah is the God of the Covenant people. To those that are "born again", he can also be considered our Father, since he has spiritually begotten us.
Mosiah 5:7 "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

God the Father is the father of our Spirits. (Hebrews 12:9) He is God to all humanity, regardless of their covenant status. He "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Jesus came to reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27; John 17:25-26), to pay for our sins, and be our advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1). He fulfilled the Old Law, every word of it. Salvation was no longer just to the Jews, but to the whole world. And Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Which has always been the case (under this paradigm), in the Old Testament and the New.
Jesus Christ submits to the will of the Father (John 6:38), and they are "one" in purpose (John 10:29-30). Thus, we worship God the Father, in the name of the Son. "6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

When mormons say they will become "gods" (D&C 132:15-20), that is referring to "gods" in terms of authority received, Being "kings and priests" unto the Most High God - (D&C 76: 52-62) just as Jesus justified calling himself a Son of God (Psalms 82:6).

So, was there One God over Israel - yes. Exactly as the bible says.
Is there One God we worship, in the name of Christ. Yes.

Is that polylatristic - maybe. Is that a violation of the 1st commandment. I don't think so, but I welcome feedback.

Grace vs. Works
Grace/Works - Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:5, 11:5-6, etc., Mormons (not you, but others) run away to James 2.

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not run away from these verses. I guess I don't really need to discuss this.

Now, if you wish to refute my comments, remember, according to your own rules - you can only use the bible as evidence. You can't refer to any belief imposed by any creed, authority, or foundational belief based of a given religion. The term "That's not Christian" is irrelevant, since this is the Mormonism board, and we can't discuss Christianity.

I look forward to your response.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Is there a reason I should ignore Psalms 82, or James 2? They are part of the Bible, right?

I never said you should ignore them.
I said you shouldn't use them as an excuse to ignore the OTHER passages.

When you have 20 passages that seem to teach one thing, and only ONE passage that seems to teach the opposite, it's far more likely the "one" passage is being misinterpreted, than the "20" are being misinterpreted.

It's obvious that the CONTEXT of Ps. 82 means that the "gods" is referring to the corrupt human judges wrongly wielding God's authority, and not actual "deities".

Agreed. Words do have meaning. Sometimes a word can have more than one meaning. Sometimes words have imply a different concept when acknowledging the context.
But to your challenge, let's stick strictly to what the Bible says.

One God
Deut. 4:35,39 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."
Isa. 43-46 - Not sure which verse to quote here.

Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9.
It's only four chapters, not a lot to read, and it pounds home the idea of "only one god" OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again.

Given in context, these statements were given to Israel. They were not spoken to the world but his covenant people.

Irrelevant.
It's an absolute statement.
It doesn't say, "there is only one God FOR YOU".
But you are adding an artificial context to make it mean the OPPOSITE of what it actually says.

[Aaron] believe[s ] "[Jesus] was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New." He is our Creator, Redeemer, and Judge.


The Book of Mormon (clearly) teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "ONE GOD".
Not, "one godhead".
But "one GOD".

Jesus/Jehovah is the God of the Covenant people. To those that are "born again", he can also be considered our Father, since he has spiritually begotten us.

Not only is that unBiblical, but it's rationalization.
So you're claiming that Jesus is "Heavenly Father"?

Mosiah 5:7 "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

The Bible says we were CREATED, no t"spiritually begotten".
So the Book of Mormon is wrong.

Jesus came to reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27; John 17:25-26), to pay for our sins, and be our advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1). He fulfilled the Old Law, every word of it. Salvation was no longer just to the Jews, but to the whole world.

You see, you do this all the time.
You take a later revelation (Jesus), and try to use that to reject an earlier revelation (that only one god exists). God gave us revelations in a particular order, and He did this for a reason.

Only one God exists, but you are using the distinction between the Father and the Son to try to deny this.

Jesus Christ submits to the will of the Father (John 6:38), and they are "one" in purpose (John 10:29-30).

Please stop changing the subject.
Let's determine the truth about how many gods exist, and once we've done that, then we can discuss how Jesus and the Father fit into the paradigm.

Thus, we worship God the Father, in the name of the Son. "6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

So now you're quoting 1 Cor. 8, and IGNORING what came just two verses earlier:

1Cor. 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.

The "gods many" in v.5 is referring to IDOLS (of which Paul says, "an idol has no real existence"), and the reason Paul says "to us" is because we are not like the pagans who believe in multiple gods (who are nothing but idols, such as Mercury, Zeus, Artemis, etc.)

In fact, the very verse you are quoting, 1 Cor. 8:6, is an expansion of the Sh'ma, the daily Jewish prayer in Deut. 6:4-5 which the Jews pray every day to proclaim ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS.

God is both "God" and "LORD", they are the same deity.
Yet Paul includes both in the "one true God", and by convention refers to the Father as "God" (without denying His Lordship), and to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity). But they are the same ONE TRUE GOD that the Jews worship when they pray Deut. 6.

So, was there One God over Israel - yes. Exactly as the bible says.
Is there One God we worship, in the name of Christ. Yes.

But those passages don't TEACH, "You are only to worship one God."
They teach, "Only one God EXISTS".

So you reject the plain meaning of Scripture.

Now, if you wish to refute my comments, remember, according to your own rules - you can only use the bible as evidence. You can't refer to any belief imposed by any creed, authority, or foundational belief based of a given religion.

I never use anything but the Bible, so I find your comment insulting.

The only time I don't, such as when I quote ECF's, is when (1) Mormons try to quote the ECF's to try to contradict the church, or try to claim that Mormon beliefs have existed since the early church. I do this to show the Mormons their hypocrisy. The vast majority of them have never studied the ECF's, but quote them (from quotes collected from the likes of Jeff Lindsay and others) when it suits them, and ignores ECF's when they go against Mormonism. And that's hypocrisy.

The term "That's not Christian" is irrelevant, since this is the Mormonism board, and we can't discuss Christianity.

You're not a moderator, and you don't make the rules.
If I quote something you think is off-topic, you are free to report it. But please be aware that abusing the reporting system is also against the rules.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
One God
Deut. 4:35,39 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."
Isa. 43-46 - Not sure which verse to quote here.

Again, the verses in question (which you could have discovered on your own had you bothered to actually read the section, it's only four chapters long) are:

Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9.

The background is that this passage is referred to as "The Trial of the False Gods". God is putting on a public display, to show His people that the false gods they were following are not true gods at all, and in fact don't exist. He variously calls them out, to have them appear, and testify for themselves (which they can't do, obviously), as if he was calling them to testify in court. He also challenges them to (1) predict the future (which God can do), and (2) explain the purpose for the past (which God can do).

No one ever shows up, since those gods don't exist.
And that's why God repeatedly teaches, "There are no other gods", and "Besides me there is no god", and "I know not any [other god]".
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
I never said you should ignore them.
I said you shouldn't use them as an excuse to ignore the OTHER passages.
I don't believe I am.

When you have 20 passages that seem to teach one thing, and only ONE passage that seems to teach the opposite, it's far more likely the "one" passage is being misinterpreted, than the "20" are being misinterpreted.
But I don't think 20 are being misrepresented.

It's obvious that the CONTEXT of Ps. 82 means that the "gods" is referring to the corrupt human judges wrongly wielding God's authority, and not actual "deities".
Agreed.

Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9.
It's only four chapters, not a lot to read, and it pounds home the idea of "only one god" OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again.
Regardless, the verses are addressed to Israel. So, the meaning doesn't change as I've interpreted it.

Irrelevant.
It's an absolute statement.
It doesn't say, "there is only one God FOR YOU".
Who is "thy" in "I am the LORD thy God"? Who was God talking to?

But you are adding an artificial context to make it mean the OPPOSITE of what it actually says.
What artificial context is that?

The Book of Mormon (clearly) teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "ONE GOD".
Not, "one godhead".
But "one GOD".
Nope. Not true.

Not only is that unBiblical, but it's rationalization.
How is it unbiblical?

So you're claiming that Jesus is "Heavenly Father"?
Nope. I'm simply showing how "Father" can be more analogous than literal.

The Bible says we were CREATED, no t"spiritually begotten".
So the Book of Mormon is wrong.
Are we not a "new Creature" in Christ? (2 Cor. 5:17)

You see, you do this all the time.
You take a later revelation (Jesus), and try to use that to reject an earlier revelation (that only one god exists). God gave us revelations in a particular order, and He did this for a reason.
According to who? I'm just seeing the Bible as a whole, and seeing the pattern.

Only one God exists, but you are using the distinction between the Father and the Son to try to deny this.
The Father and the Son are separate right?

Please stop changing the subject.
Let's determine the truth about how many gods exist, and once we've done that, then we can discuss how Jesus and the Father fit into the paradigm.
God is unchanging. What's true for the OT, should be true for the NT.

So now you're quoting 1 Cor. 8, and IGNORING what came just two verses earlier:

1Cor. 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.

The "gods many" in v.5 is referring to IDOLS (of which Paul says, "an idol has no real existence"), and the reason Paul says "to us" is because we are not like the pagans who believe in multiple gods (who are nothing but idols, such as Mercury, Zeus, Artemis, etc.)
How do you know that 1 Cor 8:4 isn't contrasting idols with a different defintion of "gods" (human judges wrongly wielding God's authority) as you acknowledged above?

In fact, the very verse you are quoting, 1 Cor. 8:6, is an expansion of the Sh'ma, the daily Jewish prayer in Deut. 6:4-5 which the Jews pray every day to proclaim ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS.
Yes. Applied to a Jewish and Gentile audience, as opposed to solely a Jewish audience.

God is both "God" and "LORD", they are the same deity.
Yet Paul includes both in the "one true God", and by convention refers to the Father as "God" (without denying His Lordship), and to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity). But they are the same ONE TRUE GOD that the Jews worship when they pray Deut. 6.
And yet, the NT talks about "God" the Father, and "the Lord" Jesus Christ. Unless, your suggest modalism, which we know is wrong.

But those passages don't TEACH, "You are only to worship one God."
They teach, "Only one God EXISTS".
This is where I get confused. Is Jesus fully God?
Are you suggesting partialism?

So you reject the plain meaning of Scripture.
I guess that depends on who you believe the God of Israel is.

I never use anything but the Bible, so I find your comment insulting.
ok.

You're not a moderator, and you don't make the rules.
If I quote something you think is off-topic, you are free to report it. But please be aware that abusing the reporting system is also against the rules.
I'm just reminding you of the standard you set in your initial comment.

Thanks for the chat.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Are it's addressed to Israel. So, the meaning doesn't change as I've interpreted it.

So If I say "2 + 2 = 4", is that only true for English speakers, or for North Americans?
Of course not, it's an ABSOLUTE truth.

If I say, "Olympia is the capital of Washington", is that only true for Americans?
Or is it true in an ABSOLUTE sense, no matter where you live?

When God tells the Israelites, "I am the the ONLY God, there is no other", that is likewise an ABSOLUTE truth.

Who is "thy" in "I am the LORD thy God"? Who was God talking to?

Why did you run away from the verses in question?

The verses I brought up, teach that ONLY ONE GOD exists.
Your verse teaches that the ONLY TRUE GOD that exists, is Israel's personal god.

Nope. Not true.

Nope, VERY True:

Alma 11:44 ... and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

The Father and the Son are separate right?

They are ONE God, as even your own Book of Mormon teaches.
But once again, you are making ASSUMPTIONS based on later revelations, to deny previous revelations (that only ONE god exists).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
But I don't think 20 are being misrepresented.

Okay, here's a VERY simple question (that no Mormon is ever willing to answer):

"IF God had wanted to teach that He is the only deity/god/divine-being who ever existed, or would ever exist, how would He have to reveal this truth in a way that Mormons COULDN'T twist and deny with something like, "well, that is only referring to gods for Israel, and is not a denial of the existence of other gods"?

I posit that the LDS methodology for twisting Scripture makes it IMPOSSIBLE for God to reveal this truth in a way that Mormons would ever accept.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The funny thing is, there is no passage that states "only one God exists" but there are passages that state that "many gods exist". What we have here is a willingness of our critics to ignore what the Bible actually says in favor of what they want it to say.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The funny thing is, there is no passage that states "only one God exists"

Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else besides me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and there is  none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.

but there are passages that state that "many gods exist".

Wrong again.

Ps. 82 is about unjust human judges (as Aaron has admitted).
John 10 is simply a quote of Ps. 82.
1 Cor. 8:5 is about "idols", which Paul claims "are nothing in this world" (ie. they don't exist).

So no, there are NO passages which teach "many god exists".

What we have here is a willingness of our critics to ignore what the Bible actually says in favor of what they want it to say.

Pathetic attempt at gaslighting.
Scripture refutes you.
And I have presented it, and you have not.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The background is that this passage is referred to as "The Trial of the False Gods"
Which, in itself, indicates that there are other Gods. Our critics ignore these vital contextual clues that tell us exactly what is going on here. There is one God over Israel and no others. It isn't saying there are no other gods.
Irrelevant.
Oh, but it is relevant. :rolleyes: Context is everything. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but that only makes your reasoning less stable and reduces the argument to opinions.
It's an absolute statement.
It doesn't say, "there is only one God FOR YOU".
It is not absolute. It is couched in circumstances that affect the meaning.
Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else besides me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and there is  none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.
yep and exactly as I said, none of those verses state that "only one God exists"
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Wrong again.

Ps. 82 is about unjust human judges (as Aaron has admitted).
John 10 is simply a quote of Ps. 82.
1 Cor. 8:5 is about "idols", which Paul claims "are nothing in this world" (ie. they don't exist).

So no, there are NO passages which teach "many god exists".
Nope. Right again" 1 Cor 8:5 "... as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"...

Indeed there are many gods. Word for word!!!
Your phrase, not so much. You reject the Bible for your own theology.
 

The Prophet

Active member
No. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
The truth is not gaslighting.
James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
So If I say "2 + 2 = 4", is that only true for English speakers, or for North Americans?
Of course not, it's an ABSOLUTE truth.

If I say, "Olympia is the capital of Washington", is that only true for Americans?
Or is it true in an ABSOLUTE sense, no matter where you live?
If the President of the United States goes to Germany, and says "I am your President" is it just as true for Germans as it is for Americans?

Nope. Not really. The Abrahamic Covenant was promised to Abraham and his descendants, not to everybody.

When God tells the Israelites, "I am the the ONLY God, there is no other", that is likewise an ABSOLUTE truth.
Yes. And it was true. Then Jesus came along and said "No one has seen the Father"

Why did you run away from the verses in question?
Did I? Where?

The verses I brought up, teach that ONLY ONE GOD exists.
I've already explained that. Do you have verses outside the OT that I missed?
Your verse teaches that the ONLY TRUE GOD that exists, is Israel's personal god.
Yep.

Nope, VERY True:

Alma 11:44 ... and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
We believe the Godhead is a singular authority, but separate personages.

Consider under which we are baptized:
3 Nephi 11:
27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

They are ONE God, as even your own Book of Mormon teaches.
But once again, you are making ASSUMPTIONS based on later revelations, to deny previous revelations (that only ONE god exists).
Well, they're certainly not competing deities.
As I mentioned to john t, yesterday, we believe in the principles of the Trinity, it's just one iota that divides our beliefs.
Members of Christ's Church are commanded to be one as the body of Christ, as the Father, Son, and HG are one.
Regardless of how you want to describe that, that's how we have always accepted the nature of God from the beginning.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Is there a reason I should ignore Psalms 82, or James 2? They are part of the Bible, right?


Agreed. Words do have meaning. Sometimes a word can have more than one meaning. Sometimes words have imply a different concept when acknowledging the context.
But to your challenge, let's stick strictly to what the Bible says.

One God
Deut. 4:35,39 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else."
Isa. 43-46 - Not sure which verse to quote here.

Given in context, these statements were given to Israel. They were not spoken to the world but his covenant people.
Mormons believe "[Jesus] was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New." He is our Creator, Redeemer, and Judge.

Jesus/Jehovah is the God of the Covenant people. To those that are "born again", he can also be considered our Father, since he has spiritually begotten us.
Mosiah 5:7 "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

God the Father is the father of our Spirits. (Hebrews 12:9) He is God to all humanity, regardless of their covenant status. He "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Jesus came to reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27; John 17:25-26), to pay for our sins, and be our advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1). He fulfilled the Old Law, every word of it. Salvation was no longer just to the Jews, but to the whole world. And Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Which has always been the case (under this paradigm), in the Old Testament and the New.
Jesus Christ submits to the will of the Father (John 6:38), and they are "one" in purpose (John 10:29-30). Thus, we worship God the Father, in the name of the Son. "6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

When mormons say they will become "gods" (D&C 132:15-20), that is referring to "gods" in terms of authority received, Being "kings and priests" unto the Most High God - (D&C 76: 52-62) just as Jesus justified calling himself a Son of God (Psalms 82:6).

So, was there One God over Israel - yes. Exactly as the bible says.
Is there One God we worship, in the name of Christ. Yes.

Is that polylatristic - maybe. Is that a violation of the 1st commandment. I don't think so, but I welcome feedback.

Grace vs. Works
Grace/Works - Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:5, 11:5-6, etc., Mormons (not you, but others) run away to James 2.

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not run away from these verses. I guess I don't really need to discuss this.

Now, if you wish to refute my comments, remember, according to your own rules - you can only use the bible as evidence. You can't refer to any belief imposed by any creed, authority, or foundational belief based of a given religion. The term "That's not Christian" is irrelevant, since this is the Mormonism board, and we can't discuss Christianity.

I look forward to your response.
Is there a reason you do not use The Joseph smith "Inspired" translation?

Why use the KJV ?

Why do you run away from his "translation"?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Well, they're certainly not competing deities.

No, of course not, they are ONE deity.

As I mentioned to john t, yesterday, we believe in the principles of the Trinity, it's just one iota that divides our beliefs.

That's a pretty BIG "iota".

Members of Christ's Church are commanded to be one as the body of Christ, as the Father, Son, and HG are one.

That's simply not true.

But I understand that you keep making up stuff out of thin air, just like you made up that false claim that we have to "admit to being deceived by the craftiness of men" in order to get into the Terrestrial kingdom, which D&C 76 never teaches (obviously you've never read D&C 76).
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
No, of course not, they are ONE deity.
Ummm...ok.
That's a pretty BIG "iota".
Yep. A debate as old as the Nicene Creed.
That's simply not true.
John 17:21
Eph. 4:1-16
But I understand that you keep making up stuff out of thin air, just like you made up that false claim that we have to "admit to being deceived by the craftiness of men" in order to get into the Terrestrial kingdom, which D&C 76 never teaches (obviously you've never read D&C 76).
I'm not sure why you're tripping on this, or why you think I made this up
Terrestial Glory:
D&C 76:
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

So, in the next life, if God asks "Why didn't you receive it? You'll have to say "I was blinded by the craftiness of men".

If you never receive it in this life, or the next, then...
Telestial Glory:
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yep. A debate as old as the Nicene Creed.

What does the "Nicene Creed" have to do with anything?

John 17:21

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Where does it mention anything about a "body"?

Eph. 4:1-16

You think that's referring to one physical body?!

I'm not sure why you're tripping on this, or why you think I made this up
Terrestial Glory:
D&C 76:
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

So, in the next life, if God asks "Why didn't you receive it? You'll have to say "I was blinded by the craftiness of men".

Did Joseph Smith give you permission to add to his revelation?

Telestial Glory:
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

So every other Mormon I've ever talked to is completely wrong, and you alone are right?
You really have a difficult time accepting correction.
 

The Prophet

Active member
The Nicene Creed practically word for word found in the D&C :)


Section 20:

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true god, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.

20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.

21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.

22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.

23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day;

24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;

25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved—




26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,

27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.


NICENE CREED (Professed at Sunday Mass) We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father; God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God; begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again, in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Why would Mormons object to the Creed and not to the D&C section 20 ?
:)
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Yep. A debate as old as the Nicene Creed.

You know, it's quite amusing for you to bring up the "Nicene Creed", after telling me I can only quote the Bible here. So if I respond, then you are going to claim that you've "caught" me, and I'm allegedly doing something I'm not supposed to do. Alternatively, if I don't respond to it, then you guys get to make your claims and innuendos without any fear of rebuke, which is what you often do when you constantly try to discuss Evangelical beliefs here.

But since every Mormon I've run into has been woefully ignorant on the Council of Nicaea, I guess I should educate you guys.

1) First of all, the Council did NOT define the "Trinity". The Trinity was already a belief in early Christianity by this point.

2) Contrary to what many Mormons have claimed (and I have no clue where they get this from), The Council of Nicaea did NOT define the canon of Scripture. That too was already established prior to Nicaea.

3) The actual council of Nicaea was for the specific purpose of formally condemning the heresy of Arius and his group. Arius famously taught, "There was a time when the Son was not", denying the eternality of the Son.
 
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