Oneness is a 1st century dominant belief of early Christians.

TheLayman

Active member
Again: "the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the very ground that their very Rule of Faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God.

The "majority" according to Tertullian had the "rule of faith" of "one only true God".

The majority opposed the Trinity according to Tertullian while worshipping Jesus as God and were holding to the orthodox teaching of the apostles doctrine concerning God and Christ from the New Testament.

Since Tertullian's view of the Trinity was different than what the doctrine evolved into by later centuries, would you consider Tertullian a Trinitarian by your standards today?
This is exactly why I rarely post anymore...you literally ignored everything I said to you in the previous post. Not only that, even though what Tertullian said is not difficult to understand, you apparently don't (I say apparently as you ignored everything I said). I will copy and paste what Tertullian said again and this time highlight "the rule of faith" that was handed down to them...ready? Here we go:

"In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done (and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or οἰκονομία, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her — being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas. In this principle also we must henceforth find a presumption of equal force against all heresies whatsoever — that whatever is first is true, whereas that is spurious which is later in date. But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of various persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons— the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds." (Tertullian, Against Praxeas, ch 2)

What you see highlighted in red is the "Rule of Faith" that was handed down which is incredibly close to the Nicene Creed. In fact, this rule of faith can be found in other ANF writings and comes from what is known as "the Old Roman Creed." Once again, everything that is in Red is the rule of faith. The majority of believers was never Patripassians. What is more is that as best we know, Praxeas recanted of his false teaching.

Lastly, this Treatise is not against the church at large, it is titled and directed at "Praxeas" and his followers. The the "majority" of his followers are simple does not make all believers Patripassian, he is speaking to those who follow the teachings of Praxeas, those believers. Tertullian just finished clearly stating that this heresy is a new and novel heresy, not something that had been around forever which the majority of people believed. Now if you want to deny what is right in front of you I can't stop you and won't go back and forth on this for fifty posts.

TheLayman
 

Truther

Well-known member
Do you ever take the time to understand what is going on in a conversation before replying? Andreas was attempting to attack Trinitarianism by quoting Tertullian. How is it Illegitimate for Trinitarians to give further clarification?

To answer your questions:
Who cares what post Apostolic commentators said about anything?
Then why did Andreas bring it up? Why did cyber_truth start this thread?
Are you all basing your beliefs on them?
No.
Have you not a Bible to develop your own opinion?
Sorry, we don't develop our beliefs. Our beliefs are taught in Scripture and confirmed by the Holy Spirit; unlike yours.
Must you be taught by commentary?
Obviously not. But maybe, you shouldn't reject Christianity just because someone else taught it in the past.

God Bless
Obviously, the Holy Ghost hasn’t developed the truth in any of your minds. All of you were arguing differently. Read your Bible. That is your source. The Bible alone contains your directions.

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
 
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froggy

Active member
This is an assertion asserted without any actual evidence. Formulated in 381? You've got to be joking. The term was coined in like 150. The Didache was written in 100 which includes triple baptizing in the name of each person in the Trinity. We have Trinitarian writers arguing with Modalist throughout the first three centuries. I'm not saying Modalism wasn't early. It was definitely earlier than Arianism, but the Trinitarian narrative presented above is nothing but pure fantasy.

God Bless
And Modalism doesn't deny the Deity of Christ while that doctrine is fatally flawed.

Blessings
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
Obviously, the Holy Ghost hasn’t developed the truth in any of your minds. All of you were arguing differently. Read your Bible. That is your source. The Bible alone contains your directions.

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Given that you have to simply reject passage after passage like Phil. 2:5-8, John 1:1, Matthew 28:19 etc to continue to hold your theology, the Holy Ghost clearly hasn’t developed the truth in your mind.

God Bless
 

Truther

Well-known member
Given that you have to simply reject passage after passage like Phil. 2:5-8, John 1:1, Matthew 28:19 etc to continue to hold your theology, the Holy Ghost clearly hasn’t developed the truth in your mind.

God Bless
Oh, you mean the interpretation of Philippians 2 that you believe is saying God thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Yeah right.
 

Truther

Well-known member
You mean what the text says? "though he was in form God, did not count equality with God a thing to be held onto..." Maybe, you should try reading Scripture instead of mocking it.

God Bless
What version did you come up with to support that? Or, did you personally re-write that verse?
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
What version did you come up with to support that? Or, did you personally re-write that verse?

Do you have any evidence that I mistranslated it, or is this an excuse to ignore what the text says? How about the KJV?
"being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:". Or,
"though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," ESV
"He was in every way like God. Yet he did not think that being equal to God was something he must hold on to." Worldwide English
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; NIV
No matter how you translate it, equality with God is something Jesus had and he didn't hold onto it but emptied himself. Why do you reject the Scripture?

God Bless
 

Truther

Well-known member
Do you have any evidence that I mistranslated it, or is this an excuse to ignore what the text says? How about the KJV?
"being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:". Or,
"though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," ESV
"He was in every way like God. Yet he did not think that being equal to God was something he must hold on to." Worldwide English
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; NIV
No matter how you translate it, equality with God is something Jesus had and he didn't hold onto it but emptied himself. Why do you reject the Scripture?

God Bless
They all say something different.

The KJV is the only non biased translation, explaining that a man was in the form of God....not a Deity was in the form of God, thinking it not robbery to be equal with God.

Don't forget, your idea of Phil 2 also teaches that God humbled himself to Satan and wicked man, whom ultimately killed him.
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
They all say something different.

And, no matter how you translate it, equality with God is something Jesus had and he didn't hold onto it but emptied himself. Why do you reject the Scripture?

The KJV is the only non biased translation, explaining that a man was in the form of God....not a Deity was in the form of God, thinking it not robbery to be equal with God.

So, Jesus didn't think he was robbing God being his equal. That's what "thinking it not robbery to be equal with God." means. This alone puts a nail in your theology. BTW, it doesn't say a man was in the form of God. It says Jesus was in the form of God as God's equal before he became a man. Jesus became a man by empting himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Don't forget, your idea of Phil 2 also teaches that God humbled himself to Satan and wicked man, whom ultimately killed him.

Stop pretending Trinitarianism isn't Trinitarian. We believe the second person humbled himself. We don't believe the Trinity as a whole or the first person humbled himself. Besides, we believe "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death". Where do you get the idea that Jesus humbled himself to Satan? Jesus' death was God the Father's plan. Jesus humbled himself by becoming obedient to the Father to the point of death. After all, "truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and by your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28.

God Bless
 

Truther

Well-known member
And, no matter how you translate it, equality with God is something Jesus had and he didn't hold onto it but emptied himself. Why do you reject the Scripture?



So, Jesus didn't think he was robbing God being his equal. That's what "thinking it not robbery to be equal with God." means. This alone puts a nail in your theology. BTW, it doesn't say a man was in the form of God. It says Jesus was in the form of God as God's equal before he became a man. Jesus became a man by empting himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.



Stop pretending Trinitarianism isn't Trinitarian. We believe the second person humbled himself. We don't believe the Trinity as a whole or the first person humbled himself. Besides, we believe "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death". Where do you get the idea that Jesus humbled himself to Satan? Jesus' death was God the Father's plan. Jesus humbled himself by becoming obedient to the Father to the point of death. After all, "truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and by your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28.

God Bless
The equality Jesus had with God was that he was the sinless human son of God.

God cannot sin, nor did Jesus.

This makes he and his Father, "equals".

So, your idea that divinity #2 had equality challenges with divinity #1 and #3 are hokey, to say the least.
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
The equality Jesus had with God was that he was the sinless human son of God.

God cannot sin, nor did Jesus.

This makes he and his Father, "equals".

Sinlessness is not equality. Besides, you are simply ignoring "in the form of God" and "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" parts. If he was in the form of God and then was made in the likeness of men, then he wasn't human when he "thought it not robbery to be equal with God." How can you think you are rightly interpreting Scripture when you interpretation necessitates ignoring half of what is written?

So, your idea that divinity #2 had equality challenges with divinity #1 and #3 are hokey, to say the least.

Not divinity #2. Any critique based upon straw men like this should be ignored and/or condemned. Make a logical argument next time.

God Bless
 

Truther

Well-known member
Sinlessness is not equality. Besides, you are simply ignoring "in the form of God" and "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" parts. If he was in the form of God and then was made in the likeness of men, then he wasn't human when he "thought it not robbery to be equal with God." How can you think you are rightly interpreting Scripture when you interpretation necessitates ignoring half of what is written?



Not divinity #2. Any critique based upon straw men like this should be ignored and/or condemned. Make a logical argument next time.

God Bless
Sinlessness is the quality Jesus had to measure himself with God.

And all this time you thought God measured himself with God.
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
Sinlessness is the quality Jesus had to measure himself with God.

Sinlessness isn't in the context of Phil 2:6. You are simply reading this into the text to pretend the text doesn't teach what it teaches. The direct context for this equality was Jesus being "in the form of God". Deal with what the text says as opposed to what you wish it said.

And all this time you thought God measured himself with God.

Straw men like this should be ignored and/or condemned. Make a logical argument next time.

God Bless
 

Truther

Well-known member
Sinlessness isn't in the context of Phil 2:6. You are simply reading this into the text to pretend the text doesn't teach what it teaches. The direct context for this equality was Jesus being "in the form of God". Deal with what the text says as opposed to what you wish it said.



Straw men like this should be ignored and/or condemned. Make a logical argument next time
.

God Bless
What other qualities does God have to consider Himself to be equal with God?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
So you think John was ignorant about who Jesus was and you have it right?

Do you worship Jesus as your Lord and Savior, or do you see Him as a good buddy?
No, I don't think of Jesus a my good buddy but as a high respected friend who is my Lord and God.
You misunderstood what I said about the disciples who walked who walked with Jesus. They would have never understood the doctrine of the Trinity, even John.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
IIf Oneness was a doctrine from the earliest days you should be able to find plenty of examples prior to the early 20th century. Please provide your example
The Old testament which the apostles quoted often informed the disciples who their God was and who their messiah was. Jesus added to their knowledge of the Messiah and taught them from the OT about himself. Luke 24:27.

The early Oneness disciples were derided by Logos theologians and then the trinitarians from the 2nd century onward. The Oneness works were mostly destroyed by the trinitarians and many works were written against Oneness theologians. We only know what the early Oneness believed from there adversaries works, who we can't be sure that their representation of their beliefs were accurately relayed. So the best thing to do is rely on the Bible and what it says about God and his Messiah.
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
What other qualities does God have to consider Himself to be equal with God?

Straw men like this should be ignored and/or condemned. Make a logical argument next time.

Sinlessness isn't in the context of Phil 2:6. You are simply reading this into the text to pretend the text doesn't teach what it teaches. The direct context for this equality was Jesus being
"in the form of God". Deal with what the text says as opposed to what you wish it said.

God Bless
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
They would have never understood the doctrine of the Trinity, even John.

Then why did they teach all the tenets of the Trinity throughout Scripture? Why did those who sat under their teachings do the same in their writings? Since these men taught it, they clearly understood the doctrine of the Trinity without ever knowing/using the term.

The Old testament which the apostles quoted often informed the disciples who their God was and who their messiah was. Jesus added to their knowledge of the Messiah and taught them from the OT about himself. Luke 24:27.

And? This is what's called a non sequitur. Oneness does not follow from any of this. Jesus did add to their knowledge, namely, that he and the Spirit were God too, a second and third person who are also the one God of the OT.

The Oneness works were mostly destroyed by the trinitarians and many works were written against Oneness theologians.

You mean those Trinitarians who were under massive persecution by Roman officials? Those Trinitarians who had no political clout until 325 only to lose that clout to the Arians for some 50 years? Perhaps the real reason why we don't have their writings were due to the fact they didn't write as much and they didn't have an ongoing community eager to maintain it?

God Bless
 
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