Only pray to God

balshan

Well-known member
Seriously do RCs ever think before they post.

You are misrepresenting what I posted, no surprise it is the RC way. You are playing RC word games, no surprise.

Obviously you did not go to RC schools or you are part of the new age RCC. We were taught in our catechism class that the unbelieving dead goes to hell for eternity. You have no idea at all who is in heaven and who is in hell.

Let me scripture says I can ask another living believer to pray with me. There are only a couple of people that I trust and ask for prayer when in real need for a friend or family member. I do not ask just anyone to pray. Scripture never says ask a dead person to pray for me. Of course I would not ask an RC to pray, it would have to be another real believer. Scripture Jesus is clear pray to the Father, He never said pray to Mary after she is dead at all.
 
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balshan

Well-known member
Let's start reeel simple: the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1379. What is Hell?
A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.

Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?
A. The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one's reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world. But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.

--Rich
RCs don't like the truth of their beliefs to get in the way of a good story.
 

balshan

Well-known member
No we are talking about who we should pray to, all real believers are saints. Scripture is clear do not contact the dead. Pray is another form of contact.

Also you were making out that those in heaven were not dead. This is just an RC word game. There is only one way to get to heaven in nearly all cases and that is to die. That means you are dead. It is only RCs who like to pretend that death does not occur. We all face the physical body dying. So stop the games.

Ecc 9

2 Everyone will die someday. Death comes to godly and sinful people alike. It comes to good and bad people alike. It comes to “clean” and “unclean” people alike. Those who offer sacrifices and those who don’t offer them also die.

These word games do not divert from the fact you follow the natural world of ancestor worship when you pray to the dead. It is not scriptural, no apostle did it. Jesus only said to pray to the Father.
 
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balshan

Well-known member
You can refer to whatever post you like, it is still RC word games. We don't miss anything at all. You want to control the discussion and ignore the truth.

I am surprised you think so your pope is all for everyone going to heaven believer or not.

The ‘children of heaven and resurrection’ are not a privileged few, but they are all men and all women, because the salvation brought by Jesus is for everyone.” from veritas vincit. He is also known to have said "you don't have to believe in God to go to heaven" from charter for compassion

It wasn't a dig, it was the truth. I never said it wasn't God who decides. But scripture is clear do not contact the dead whether they are believer or not. It just says very clearly do NOT contact the dead.
 
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RiJoRi

Well-known member
But scripture is clear do not contact the dead whether they are believer or not. It just says very clearly do NOT contact the dead.
And look at what happened to King Saul when he ignored that command and tried to talk to the dead Samuel. 😱 1Co 10:11 [DRC] Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

--Rich
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
Sorry, the means do not matter, the intent does. Saul was trying to communicate with a d-e-a-d saint. He got his wish the next day, as Samuel told him he would.

But, go ahead. Believe what your church tells you, even if it goes against God's Word.

--Rich
 
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balshan

Well-known member
Sorry, the means do not matter, the intent does. Saul was trying to communicate with a d-e-a-d saint. He got his wish the next day, as Samuel told him he would.

But, go ahead. Believe what your church tells you, even if it goes against God's Word.

--Rich
You are spot on Rich. They twist and they turn, yet if it was a common practice why did not one apostle pray to the dead Mary.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
1 Cor 4:6

I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
Paul spoke highly of Apollos. He was a bright, capable man who was greatly gifted - he set a wonderful example for all Christians.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
When I was 12 years old, I lived on a military base. I remember how the the base played the national anthem at 5:30pm every day. Everyone outside had to stop what they were doing, even if driving, salute or place hand over heart if civilian, and face the direction of the music.

Now, I wasn't traumatized by this, Raynebeau. And don't you think the Incarnation is even more worthy of respect than the national anthem?
Was the whole dramatic scene you experienced every day at 5:30pm followed by 3 military statements, 3 responses and 3 Hail Marys? Did this daily repetitious moment revive anyone's faith or patriotic devotion to the flag?
I do not see the Roman Catholic devotion dubbed the "Angelus" as a 'reverence' paid to Mary in a daily. I see it as being just another way of the RCC pushing aside Jesus in Holy Scripture, the living Sacred Word of God, and focusing on Mary instead. The testimony of Jesus against the Jews is just as it is against the Roman Catholic Church, "You have not the Word of God in you, and therefore you are not able to believe who I am; I am sent unto you by God the Father. If the Scriptures lived within you, you would recognize my countenance, and you would hear my voice."
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
UnBiblical.

Btw, HERE is the teaching of the early Church:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” 
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (AD 180) 

“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”
-- Clement of Alexandria (AD 180) 

“But there is no evidence of this, because Scripture says nothing.” [...] “The Scripture says nothing of this, although it is not in other instances silent” [...] “I do not admit what you advance of your own apart from Scripture.” 
-- Tertullian, The Flesh of Christ, Ch. 6, Ch. 7 (AD 200) 

“There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of who me we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source.  For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn.”
-- Hippolytus, Against Noetus, Ch. 9 (AD 200) 

Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done.”
-- Cyprian, Epistle 73:2 (AD 250) 

“... the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth.”
-- Athanasius, Against the Heathen, 1:1:3 (AD 325) 

“Now one might write at great length concerning these things, if one desired to go rate details respecting them; for the impiety and perverseness of heresies will appear to be manifold and various, and the craft of the deceivers to be very terrible. But since Holy Scripture is of all things most sufficient for us, therefore recommending to those who desire to know more of these matters, read the Divine word, [...]” 
-- Athanasius, To the Bishops of Egypt, Ch. 1, 4 (AD 325) 

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures, nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifacts of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.”
-- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4,17 (AD 360) 

“I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth.” 
-- Basil, Letter 189, 3 (AD 370) 

“But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.”
-- Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and Resurrection (AD 375) 

"Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast." 
-- John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC. 

“Men of the world give many further rules about the way to speak, which I think we may pass over; as, for instance, the way jesting should be conducted. For though at times jests may be proper and pleasant, yet they are unsuited to the clerical life. For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”
-- Ambrose, On the Duties of the Clergy, 1.23.102 (397) 

“For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things;”
-- John Chrysostom, Homily 13 (AD 405) 

“Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not ‘be wise more than it behoveth to be wise’; but be wise, as himself saith, ‘unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.’ “ 
-- Augustine, On the Good of Widowhood (AD 425)
Take a look at what RCC St. Gregory of Nyssa and RCC St. Ambrose said..... two Roman Catholic men canonized as saints because the RCC considered them as two of the great "doctors" of the Roman Catholic Church. They both believed that the sacrament of wedlock was for 'spiritual weaklings. St. Gregory of Nyssa mourned over the marriage of one of his students as a "sad tragedy," and St. Ambrose labeled marriage as a "galling burden" and urged those of his disciples who were contemplating marriage to think of the state of domestic servitude to which marriage bliss soon deteriorated.

In the Patristic age Roman Catholic St. Jerome said, "I praise wedlock, but it is because they produce virgins for me. I gather the rose from the thorn, the gold from the earth, and the pearl from the oyster."
If anyone says that the married state excels the state of virginity or celibacy, and that it is better or happier to be united in matrimony than to remain in virginity or celibacy let him be anathema."

But even within the confines of holy matrimony, the RCC maintained that sexual congress can be mortal sin. Roman Catholic St. Augustine argued that married couples turn intercourse into a sinful act when they use it exclusively for the gratification of lust to the exclusion of the desire for offspring. Such an act is sinful, he wrote, even if no attempt is made to prevent propagation either by wrong desire or evil appliance.
Which is why maccabees is apocryphal and not part of the canon.
Yes! The author of 2 Maccabees says that his book is the abridgement of another man's work. (2 Maccabees 2:23). He concludes the book by saying "If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do. (2 Maccabees 15:38 NAB) Mediocre is a good description for the Apocrypha. Despite it's historical value, it promotes questionable ethics, fanciful legends, and doctrine that contradicts Scripture.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Take a look at what RCC St. Gregory of Nyssa and RCC St. Ambrose said..... two Roman Catholic men canonized as saints because the RCC considered them as two of the great "doctors" of the Roman Catholic Church. They both believed that the sacrament of wedlock was for 'spiritual weaklings. St. Gregory of Nyssa mourned over the marriage of one of his students as a "sad tragedy," and St. Ambrose labeled marriage as a "galling burden" and urged those of his disciples who were contemplating marriage to think of the state of domestic servitude to which marriage bliss soon deteriorated.

In the Patristic age Roman Catholic St. Jerome said, "I praise wedlock, but it is because they produce virgins for me. I gather the rose from the thorn, the gold from the earth, and the pearl from the oyster."
If anyone says that the married state excels the state of virginity or celibacy, and that it is better or happier to be united in matrimony than to remain in virginity or celibacy let him be anathema."

But even within the confines of holy matrimony, the RCC maintained that sexual congress can be mortal sin. Roman Catholic St. Augustine argued that married couples turn intercourse into a sinful act when they use it exclusively for the gratification of lust to the exclusion of the desire for offspring. Such an act is sinful, he wrote, even if no attempt is made to prevent propagation either by wrong desire or evil appliance.

Yeah, I'm not sure why you think I'm supposed to care about any of the above.
It's completely irrelevant.

But FYI, if you're going to make claims, you should actually provide quotes (eg. Augustine), and proper citations (eg. Jerome).
 

balshan

Well-known member
How has this topic drifted away from being about praying to God alone. All ECFs are fallible. No apostle prayed to the dead. They only pray to the Lord. So where is there any justification to not following Jesus when he taught us to pray. He said to pray to Abba (Our Father), not Moses or Elijah etc. We are to pray to Abba.

There is not one scripture where Jesus suggests praying to someone who is dead.
 
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