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Markk

Active member
I was looking for a quote about exaltation and marriage and ran across this by a modern LDS prophet

Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08) The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor's degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages. When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children. If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. The teaching of SWK...

I was raised in the church being taught this garbage, I just hope it is changing.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I was looking for a quote about exaltation and marriage and ran across this by a modern LDS prophet

Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08) The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor's degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages. When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children. If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. The teaching of SWK...

I was raised in the church being taught this garbage, I just hope it is changing.
It makes sense to me. What is it that you disagree with. I hope it is still taught.
 

The Prophet

Active member
It makes sense to me. What is it that you disagree with. I hope it is still taught.
“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally & of somewhat the same economic & social & educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), & above all, the same religious background, without question.” (Kimball, "Marriage and Divorce," BYU devotional, 1976, reprinted in "Devotional Speeches of the Year," 1977)

Even before the migration to Mexico had begun, Apostle Brigham Young, Jr. had warned members of the Church living in Arizona ‘that the blood of Cain was more predominant in these Mexicans than that of Israel.’ For this reason he ‘condemned the mixing’ of Mormons with ‘outsiders.’”

- B. Carmon Hardy, “Cultural ‘Encystment’ as a Cause of the Exodus from Mexico in 1912,” Pacific Historical Review, v. 34, 1965, p. 447
 

Markk

Active member
It makes sense to me. What is it that you disagree with. I hope it is still taught.
Imagine our surprise.
I am not even sure how to respond his response. it is just said.

I am currently working on a restoration and we found a news paper in a wall from 1937 that had an article about a drunk that hit and killed African American kid. The final sentence was probation. Some folks mindsets just do not change.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I am not even sure how to respond his response. it is just said.

I am currently working on a restoration and we found a news paper in a wall from 1937 that had an article about a drunk that hit and killed African American kid. The final sentence was probation. Some folks mindsets just do not change.
Loyalty to racist false prophets doesn’t help, either. Adding religion on top of it.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
I was looking for a quote about exaltation and marriage and ran across this by a modern LDS prophet

Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08) The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor's degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages. When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children. If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. The teaching of SWK...

I was raised in the church being taught this garbage, I just hope it is changing.
It seems common sense. Marriage success rates can be determined with given variables. People with different backgrounds and cultures will have a more difficult time.

This is backed by science:
"An analysis conducted a decade ago found that 10 years after they married, interracial couples had a 41% chance of separation or divorce, compared with a 31% chance among couples who married within their race, according to a study based on the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG)."


Having said that, as our society becomes more interracial and homogenized by culture, the differences in "race" factor will diminish.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Loyalty to racist false prophets doesn’t help, either. Adding religion on top of it.
It has nothing to do with racism. It's just plain common sense.

Besides, it's not a commandment, it is marital advice. No one is going to hell if they marry into another race. However, the cultural differences between people from other countries or even ethnic groups are so vast that it puts additional pressure on marriage. I know this from personal experience, I got what I asked for. It's been very hard, much harder than if I had married within my own ethnic group. I understood that and accepted it.

Kimball's comments have nothing to do with racism. That's one factor that's mentioned but he also compared wealth and education. You guys see only what you want to see and then make a mountain out of a mustard seed. :rolleyes:
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
It has nothing to do with racism. It's just plain common sense.

Besides, it's not a commandment, it is marital advice. No one is going to hell if they marry into another race. However, the cultural differences between people from other countries or even ethnic groups are so vast that it puts additional pressure on marriage. I know this from personal experience, I got what I asked for. It's been very hard, much harder than if I had married within my own ethnic group. I understood that and accepted it.

Kimball's comments have nothing to do with racism. That's one factor that's mentioned but he also compared wealth and education. You guys see only what you want to see and then make a mountain out of a mustard seed. :rolleyes:
Agreed. I don't think SWK can be more explicit than "I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin..."
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
It seems common sense.
I know, right?
Marriage success rates can be determined with given variables. People with different backgrounds and cultures will have a more difficult time.
Right, and our critics want to make it about race and completely ignore the cultural component of it.
This is backed by science:
:eek: It does? Imagine that. Our critics arguments look more and more like they are based solely on animus.
Having said that, as our society becomes more interracial and homogenized by culture, the differences in "race" factor will diminish.
True, but first we have to fix politics and media bias.
 

Markk

Active member
It has nothing to do with racism. It's just plain common sense.

Besides, it's not a commandment, it is marital advice. No one is going to hell if they marry into another race. However, the cultural differences between people from other countries or even ethnic groups are so vast that it puts additional pressure on marriage. I know this from personal experience, I got what I asked for. It's been very hard, much harder than if I had married within my own ethnic group. I understood that and accepted it.

Kimball's comments have nothing to do with racism. That's one factor that's mentioned but he also compared wealth and education. You guys see only what you want to see and then make a mountain out of a mustard seed. :rolleyes:

I am not even sure how to reply, we certainly have a fundamental difference of what racism is. Do you believe we should also go back to segregation? I am so glad I have been freed from the racist mindset of my LDS past. I still battle the scars, and it is conversations like this opens them up a bit.

Your basically saying...Blacks should only married blacks, poor should only marry poor, and stupid people should only marry stupid people...geeze. But for the record it is noted, your hopes are the GA still teach this.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I was looking for a quote about exaltation and marriage and ran across this by a modern LDS prophet

Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08) The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor's degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages. When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children. If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. The teaching of SWK...

I was raised in the church being taught this garbage, I just hope it is changing.
With interracial marriage becoming more common, it isn't as likely to be as much of a factor as it used to be. However, marrying into a different culture, religious background, or financial class is a recipe for disaster. Marriage is difficult enough without adding these into the equation.

I think it was Sartre who when asked what he looked for in a spouse, responded by saying he wanted someone who he could have a conversation with for the next 40 years. A professor of linguistics may have plenty to say, but if his wife can't read and has a limited vocabulary, she isn't going to be interested in much of anything he has to say.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I am not even sure how to reply, we certainly have a fundamental difference of what racism is. Do you believe we should also go back to segregation? I am so glad I have been freed from the racist mindset of my LDS past. I still battle the scars, and it is conversations like this opens them up a bit.

Your basically saying...Blacks should only married blacks, poor should only marry poor, and stupid people should only marry stupid people...geeze. But for the record it is noted, your hopes are the GA still teach this.
I know what you mean about these kinds of conversations opening up the scars from mormonism. It’s not a place I like to revisit, either.

Brigham Young was hardly an example of healthy marriages at all. Add his blatant racism to that, and his advice has very little credibility. Trouble is many people still regard him as a prophet speaking for God, which couldn’t be further from the truth, but in their loyalty to him they’re liable to adopt these racist and bigoted practices as well.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
With interracial marriage becoming more common, it isn't as likely to be as much of a factor as it used to be. However, marrying into a different culture, religious background, or financial class is a recipe for disaster. Marriage is difficult enough without adding these into the equation.

I think it was Sartre who when asked what he looked for in a spouse, responded by saying he wanted someone who he could have a conversation with for the next 40 years. A professor of linguistics may have plenty to say, but if his wife can't read and has a limited vocabulary, she isn't going to be interested in much of anything he has to say.
I wonder how many linguistic professors would even date someone who doesn’t read or speak well.
 

Markk

Active member
With interracial marriage becoming more common, it isn't as likely to be as much of a factor as it used to be. However, marrying into a different culture, religious background, or financial class is a recipe for disaster. Marriage is difficult enough without adding these into the equation.

I think it was Sartre who when asked what he looked for in a spouse, responded by saying he wanted someone who he could have a conversation with for the next 40 years. A professor of linguistics may have plenty to say, but if his wife can't read and has a limited vocabulary, she isn't going to be interested in much of anything he has to say.
I am amazed. I wonder what folks like Patrick Mahomes would think of that...

This is one of those things that the real problem might be on others, and not on the persons directly involved. In other words people like Kimball putting false notions in other people minds.

We still have a long way to go, for sure, and I am certainly not a saint on this subject being raised a bigot, and partly if not mainly because of LDS teachings and culture in the 60’s and 70’s.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
I am not even sure how to reply, we certainly have a fundamental difference of what racism is. Do you believe we should also go back to segregation? I am so glad I have been freed from the racist mindset of my LDS past. I still battle the scars, and it is conversations like this opens them up a bit.

Your basically saying...Blacks should only married blacks, poor should only marry poor, and stupid people should only marry stupid people...geeze. But for the record it is noted, your hopes are the GA still teach this.
As I have sided with BoJ on this topic, I just wanted to say I, personally, am not saying this. I'm saying I believe marriage success correlates with similar backgrounds, and that's how I interpret SWK's statement.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I wonder how many linguistic professors would even date someone who doesn’t read or speak well.
Or Catholics date Hindus, or liberal Democrats date conservative Republicans. I've got a few books authored by a Catholic theologian whose mother was Catholic and father was a Hindu. After becoming a Catholic priest, he traveled to India to study Hinduism, and Buddhism. He understands Hinduism and Buddhism better than most Buddhists or Hindus.
 

Markk

Active member
As I have sided with BoJ on this topic, I just wanted to say I, personally, am not saying this. I'm saying I believe marriage success correlates with similar backgrounds, and that's how I interpret SWK's statement.
That was politically correct, at least a good try:). SWK was a bigot, and treated Native Americans as if they were a cursed people...I certainly never heard him call for Mark E Petersons or BRM to resign.
 
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