Oops ...

[Aaron32]

He seems to think that women there will accept a man's name as if that makes any sense. Plutonic relationships. In reality, no one will be married, we'll just share names.

Yeah, it's called priesthood authority that separates the celestial from the terrestrial. Are marriages only of value as long as your having sex and reproducing?

 

[brotherofJared]

Yeah, it's called priesthood authority that separates the celestial from the terrestrial. Are marriages only of value as long as your having sex and reproducing?

That is only the beginning. Marriage is only of value if you are raising your children and teaching them divine values. So, tell me, what value is there in only having a man's name?

 

[Bonnie]

Right. Early mormons understood that he meant it to be doctrine from God. Modern Mormons try to change, deny, or downplay it because it’s an obvious embarrassingly false doctrine. But it was doctrine.

And it caused quite a bit of dissention, if I remember correctly. I think some left the LDS church because of it. Pity they did not ALL leave!

 

[Theo1689]

Well, let's keep in mind, the purpose of the restored gospel was not to teach us how to become gods and answer all the mysteries of eternity.

Maybe you should read more of your founder's teachings.
Not the least of which is the KFD.

We're talking about narrative, not the truthfulness of the gospel. The truth is if you follow Jesus, you are saved.

If that's the case, then there was never any NEED for any "restoration", as Christianity had that before Mormonism was invented.

 

[Markk]

Markk defines Mormonism to the 1950's narrative - Gospel of the Ages by Milton R Hunter. If you read the Wikipedia article on Milton R Hunter, his non-religious scholarly work was criticized as "Fully imbued with the patriotism, the chin-up optimism, and the faith in progress held by Mormons and other Americans during the World War II period". I would say the priesthood manual he authored wasn't much different.
As the Church grows, new perspectives come into focus, and the narrative changes, but the punchline remains the same. This is all acceptable under our 9th Article of Faith: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God

Aaron, come on man…from someone using BY and JS, who were a 100 years before Gospel Through the Ages???. Also Wikipedia? You do know anyone can write what ever they like in Wikipedia? Try reading the forward to the manual and teh review in LDS periodicals, and the fact you can still purchase the manual at Church owned Desert Books?

I do have a clear understanding of LDS doctrine from folks like Hunter, both he and his father, Talmage, Richards, JFS, McConkie, SWK, David O McKay, Peterson, Penrose, Widstoe, and alike, I literally have a few hundred books from men like these…Aaron these men were not afraid to teach and expound. Can you point me to one commentary type of book from a GA in the past 25 years of so, that gets into any detail of doctrinal commentary…I’ll buy it if you do.

Aaron, starting with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (1992), and church funded sites like Farm’s and Fair, and the Neal Maxwell Institute,..the brethren are silent of any real doctrinal commentary..100% percent so. If they were truly prophets and apostles they could at least let you know whether or not Adam was God or not…don’t you think. The church claims to be the restoration of the Gospel yet they can’t even figure out whether or not Adam is God…and if they do know, they must think the folks are too ignorant to understand the truth.

And probably the most used LDS books I paste from are the current teaching manuals Gospel Principles, and Gospel Fundamentals, all printed in the past 20 years +-. And LDS .org….So what you are staying is just not true, not even close to being true.

And…Hunter was under the direction and supervision of two future prophets and three very respected Apostles, so stop with this nonsense.

I understand that it does not fit in your preconceived box, or testimony…but it was a teaching manual with multiple printings and approved by the general authorities. It was and is doctrine whether you accept it or not.


This is one of several “forwards” to the teaching manual…by a GA, ask and I will give you more.


ELDER JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH President of the Council of the Twelve The Gospel Through the Ages will prove to be a timely, instructive and stimulating book. Students of the Gospel will find it invaluable as a reference book. In fact, every home might well consider it a valuable addition to the family library for the use of young and old.

And, who do you think writes your teaching manuals today? This is a real question? The Answer is …Paid members who take a test and pass interviews…who under a GA write what you taught…it is called correlation.

Correlation even has a research division where they send members survey questions and offer them a $10.00 amazon gift card if they reply.

Love ya man, but it is not what you think it is.

 

[Aaron32]

Aaron, come on man…from someone using BY and JS, who were a 100 years before Gospel Through the Ages???.

If the message is the same, why not use quotes from them directly? There is a difference - too much for me to encapsulate in a single post.

Also Wikipedia? You do know anyone can write what ever they like in Wikipedia?

Yes. What does that have to do with anything? The facts still exist. If you can find evidence to the contrary, feel free to update the wiki.

Try reading the forward to the manual and teh review in LDS periodicals, and the fact you can still purchase the manual at Church owned Desert Books?

Yes. I have it on LDS bookshelf. It may have been fully endorsed at the time of publication, but now it has a disclaimer on it saying it doesn't represent the Church. Probably because the culture has changed and it no longer fits. Again, we're talking about narrative, not the gospel itself.

I do have a clear understanding of LDS doctrine from folks like Hunter, both he and his father, Talmage, Richards, JFS, McConkie, SWK, David O McKay, Peterson, Penrose, Widstoe, and alike, I literally have a few hundred books from men like these…Aaron these men were not afraid to teach and expound.

It's Talmagism that I reject, that the Church decided to go with because it's socially more palatable. Everything that followed is simply parroting that narrative. And, upon deeper examination, people realize it doesn't work. You can't just write off the Lectures on Faith other doctrines by Brigham Young. You just have to receive them in their context, and get the truthfulness for yourself according to the Spirit.

I'm in a no win scenario here. I take the criticism given to Mormons to heart of picking and choosing teachings. I embrace the teaching given, and then I'm attack for not following the Church leaders that have done so. Which leader should I choose Brigham Young or Eliza R Snow? I choose the superior priesthood authority.

Can you point me to one commentary type of book from a GA in the past 25 years of so, that gets into any detail of doctrinal commentary…I’ll buy it if you do.

That's evidence to my point.
About 30 years ago or so, ETB said the BoM was being overlooked.
Ten years later, they stop with the indoctrinating lessons, make a more scripture based teaching, and have missionaries teach by the Spirit. Another ten years later, they do the same thing with the Youth lessons, and they publish gospel topic Essays, being honest about the facts "anti-normons" shared were true.
Now, all church lessons, with the exception of Gospel principles are purely scriptural based.

Why? Because leaders of the church aren't stupid. They realized the church goes beyond Utah boarders and can't get away with the teachings that only worked within the Utah bubble.

Aaron, starting with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (1992), and church funded sites like Farm’s and Fair, and the Neal Maxwell Institute,..the brethren are silent of any real doctrinal commentary..100% percent so.

Exactly! They're being congruent with with the approach they used to convert investigators in the first place - read and pray about the BoM, find out for yourself that it's true. And you're going to faulth them for that?
ETB:
"Now, we have not been using the Book of Mormon as we should. Our homes are not as strong unless we are using it to bring our children to Christ. Our families may be corrupted by worldly trends and teachings unless we know how to use the book to expose and combat falsehoods in socialism, rationalism, etc. Our missionaries are not as effective unless they are “hissing forth” with it. Social, ethical, cultural, or educational converts will not survive under the heat of the day unless their taproots go down to the fulness of the gospel which the Book of Mormon contains. Our Church classes are not as spirit-filled unless we hold it up as a standard. The situation in the world will continue to degenerate unless we read and heed the words of God and quit building up and upholding secret combinations, which the Book of Mormon tells us proved the downfall of ancient civilizations.
Some of the early missionaries, on returning home, were reproved by the Lord in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants because they had treated lightly the Book of Mormon. As a result, their minds had been darkened. The Lord said that this kind of treatment of the Book of Mormon brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all of the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon.” (See D&C 84:54–57.) Are we still under that condemnation?
Reading the Book of Mormon is one of the greatest persuaders to get men on missions. We need more missionaries. But we also need better-prepared missionaries coming out of wards and branches and homes where they know and love the Book of Mormon. A great challenge and day of preparation is at hand for missionaries to meet and teach with the Book of Mormon. We need missionaries to match our message.
And now grave consequences hang on our response to the Book of Mormon:
“Those who receive it in faith,” said the Lord, “and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life;
“But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation—
“For the Lord God has spoken it.” (D&C 20:14–16.)
Is the Book of Mormon true? Yes.
Who is it for? Us.
What is its purpose? To bring men to Christ.
How does it do this? By testifying of Christ and revealing His enemies.
How are we to use it? We are to get a testimony of it, we are to teach from it, we are to hold it up as a standard and “hiss it forth.”
Have we been doing this? Not as we should, nor as we must.
Do eternal consequences rest upon our response to this book? Yes, either to our blessing or to our condemnation."

The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God

The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God

The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Aaron32]

.

If they were truly prophets and apostles they could at least let you know whether or not Adam was God or not…don’t you think. The church claims to be the restoration of the Gospel yet they can’t even figure out whether or not Adam is God…

When has the gospel ever revealed who God is? In the Old Testament we learn God is "I Am that I Am". Only to find out in the New Testament "No man has seen God at any time" (John 1:18)

and if they do know, they must think the folks are too ignorant to understand the truth.

It's not because they think people are too ignorant, its because they can't trust people will know what to do with the information when they have it, and that their role is to declare repentance (D&C 6:9). The KFD is a perfect example. The D&C teaches it's the BoM that is the fullness of the Gospel, JS teaches the KFD, and what do people focus on for the next 150 years?
It's through Jesus we learn who the Father is. The restored gospel is designed to teach a man to fish, not be given a fish.

And probably the most used LDS books I paste from are the current teaching manuals Gospel Principles, and Gospel Fundamentals, all printed in the past 20 years +-. And LDS .org….So what you are staying is just not true, not even close to being true.

No you don't. Your primary resource has been the Gospel through the ages, to frame your argument, and the referring to places like "The Seer" to justify your claims, so that you can take snippets from Gospel Principles to interpret a skewed (1950's) meaning.

And…Hunter was under the direction and supervision of two future prophets and three very respected Apostles, so stop with this nonsense.

That doesn't matter. It's outdated.
Whoever is in charge of correlation now puts a disclaimer on the book.

I understand that it does not fit in your preconceived box, or testimony…but it was a teaching manual with multiple printings and approved by the general authorities. It was and is doctrine whether you accept it or not.

It was doctrine to what Saints needed to understand at that time, but times have changed:
“ SCOPE OF THE GOSPEL
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is perhaps the most comprehensive subject that we can study. It embraces all truth. 8 Through it, we learn not only of conditions associated with the human family as they now exist, but also of the pre-existence—of the organization of this world and of other worlds. Through the eternal principle of revelation, the great purposes of God have been revealed from age to age and shall continue to be revealed. Furthermore, it teaches us regarding glorious rewards that our Father in Heaven has in store in the world to come for those who obey the Gospel while in mortality.
The Gospel is not only founded on unvarying certainties, but since it embraces all truth it must of necessity include the knowledge of all sciences. It possesses the key to the true philosophy of life. Although we do not understand the entire plan of life and purposes of God in our universe, yet the Gospel of Jesus Christ lays the foundation for men to learn little by little the great universal plan of human life.”
“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter

Here, Hunter clearly says we embrace all truth, and we don't understand the entire picture. Which means the Church can change. Thanks to anti-mormons and Christians, the Church can now see flaws in their logic, and they now reconsider. Rather than attempting to distribute fish, they simply teach how to fish.

This is one of several “forwards” to the teaching manual…by a GA, ask and I will give you more.


ELDER JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH President of the Council of the Twelve The Gospel Through the Ages will prove to be a timely, instructive and stimulating book. Students of the Gospel will find it invaluable as a reference book. In fact, every home might well consider it a valuable addition to the family library for the use of young and old.

Yeah, that calling ended for him in 1970.
Now, this is the forward of the book:

“This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book Company. Deseret Book is a registered trademark of Deseret Book Company.”

“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter

And, who do you think writes your teaching manuals today? This is a real question? The Answer is …Paid members who take a test and pass interviews…who under a GA write what you taught…it is called correlation.CQorrelation even has a research division where they send members survey questions and offer them a $10.00 amazon gift card if they reply.

Interesting...
Maybe that's to ensure understanding is being reached, and when the message isn't being understood - they change it.

It boggles my mind how much emphasis you put under church correlation and then lambast it for being watered down and not having enough "doctrinal commentary".

Tell you what...if you believe the correlation committee is so endowed with power to determine doctrine, then going forward let's just stick to that standard. Any "official" belief assigned to my religion should be found in the gospel library app, and I won't have to Google any resource to get the context of what's being said. Deal?

Love ya man, but it is not what you think it is.

Ditto!

 

[Magdalena]

.

When has the gospel ever revealed who God is? In the Old Testament we learn God is "I Am that I Am". Only to find out in the New Testament "No man has seen God at any time" (John 1:18)

It's not because they think people are too ignorant, its because they can't trust people will know what to do with the information when they have it, and that their role is to declare repentance (D&C 6:9). The KFD is a perfect example. The D&C teaches it's the BoM that is the fullness of the Gospel, JS teaches the KFD, and what do people focus on for the next 150 years?
It's through Jesus we learn who the Father is. The restored gospel is designed to teach a man to fish, not be given a fish.

No you don't. Your primary resource has been the Gospel through the ages, to frame your argument, and the referring to places like "The Seer" to justify your claims, so that you can take snippets from Gospel Principles to interpret a skewed (1950's) meaning.

That doesn't matter. It's outdated.
Whoever is in charge of correlation now puts a disclaimer on the book.


It was doctrine to what Saints needed to understand at that time, but times have changed:
“ SCOPE OF THE GOSPEL
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is perhaps the most comprehensive subject that we can study. It embraces all truth. 8 Through it, we learn not only of conditions associated with the human family as they now exist, but also of the pre-existence—of the organization of this world and of other worlds. Through the eternal principle of revelation, the great purposes of God have been revealed from age to age and shall continue to be revealed. Furthermore, it teaches us regarding glorious rewards that our Father in Heaven has in store in the world to come for those who obey the Gospel while in mortality.
The Gospel is not only founded on unvarying certainties, but since it embraces all truth it must of necessity include the knowledge of all sciences. It possesses the key to the true philosophy of life. Although we do not understand the entire plan of life and purposes of God in our universe, yet the Gospel of Jesus Christ lays the foundation for men to learn little by little the great universal plan of human life.”
“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter

Here, Hunter clearly says we embrace all truth, and we don't understand the entire picture. Which means the Church can change. Thanks to anti-mormons and Christians, the Church can now see flaws in their logic, and they now reconsider. Rather than attempting to distribute fish, they simply teach how to fish.



Yeah, that calling ended for him in 1970.
Now, this is the forward of the book:

“This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book Company. Deseret Book is a registered trademark of Deseret Book Company.”

“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter


Interesting...
Maybe that's to ensure understanding is being reached, and when the message isn't being understood - they change it.

It boggles my mind how much emphasis you put under church correlation and then lambast it for being watered down and not having enough "doctrinal commentary".

Tell you what...if you believe the correlation committee is so endowed with power to determine doctrine, then going forward let's just stick to that standard. Any "official" belief assigned to my religion should be found in the gospel library app, and I won't have to Google any resource to get the context of what's being said. Deal?

Ditto!

The gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t change.

 

[Aaron32]

The gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t change.

Agreed. But the understanding of men does.

 

[Markk]

Yeah, that calling ended for him in 1970.
Now, this is the forward of the book:

“This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book Company. Deseret Book is a registered trademark of Deseret Book Company.”

“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter

Real quick, I am at lunch.

2012 David A. Bednar.
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form or by any means without permission in writing from the publisher, Deseret Book Company, P.O. Box 30178, Salt Lake City Utah 30178. This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book. Deseret Book is a registered trademark of Deseret Book Company.

This was printed in my first edition book by Bednar. Deseret stamps most all their books with this stamp. Very few Book published or distributed by Deseret get this stamp.

It is a pick and choose faith, if work for you whether is past or current, fine, if not reject it and the author. The Journal of Discourses and the Lectures on faith are rejected by the Church and not official doctrine, yet you champion both.

You claim you can’t win, and this is one reason why.

More later, thanks for the conversation, I love it.

 

[Markk]

Real quick, I am at lunch.

2012 David A. Bednar.
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form or by any means without permission in writing from the publisher, Deseret Book Company, P.O. Box 30178, Salt Lake City Utah 30178. This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book. Deseret Book is a registered trademark of Deseret Book Company.

This was printed in my first edition book by Bednar. Deseret stamps most all their books with this stamp. Very few Book published or distributed by Deseret Don’t get this stamp. Obviously the standard works don’t, And my copy of The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith does not.

It is a pick and choose faith, if it works for you whether is past or current, fine, if not reject it and the author. The Journal of Discourses and the Lectures on faith are rejected by the Church and not official doctrine, yet you champion both.

You claim you can’t win, and this is one reason why.

More later, thanks for the conversation, I love it.

Correction in red above

 

[Magdalena]

Agreed. But the understanding of men does.

Those men claimed to be speaking for God. They obviously weren’t. That makes them false prophets. You can’t follow false prophets, or their church, and follow Christ at the same time. You have to make a choice. One or the other.

 

[Aaron32]

Those men claimed to be speaking for God. They obviously weren’t. That makes them false prophets. You can’t follow false prophets, or their church, and follow Christ at the same time. You have to make a choice. One or the other.

You follow protestant Christianity. You broke off from the Church that formed the Bible. If that Church has false beliefs does that mean everything following is false? No.
If my Church disowns their former beliefs, and gets closer to Christ, how is it any different than what your religion has done?

 

[Theo1689]

You follow protestant Christianity. You broke off from the Church that formed the Bible.

Um, no.
The Roman church didn't "form the Bible". GOD did.

And if "breaking off from the church that formed the Bible" was wrong, then Mormons are just as wrong.

Stop trying to derail discussions away from Mormonism (which you can't defend), just to try to attack Christianity.

If that Church has false beliefs does that mean everything following is false? No.

It means their authority is false, and their prophets are false.

If my Church disowns their former beliefs, and gets closer to Christ, how is it any different than what your religion has done?

My religion has never had wrong "former beliefs".
But again, this forum is the MORMONISM forum, and is for discussing MORMONISM, not for attacking Christianity.