Order Salutis

TibiasDad

TibiasDad

Well-known member
ReverendRV said:
I think we can have the Order tweaked a little differently and be okay; as we believe Arminians and Calvinists are Saved no matter their concept of the Logical Order. Having these elements is more important to your Salvation than getting the Logical Order right. Well, at least the elements which share the Temporal Order, IE Glorification doesn't share the Temporal Order with the elements involved in our Justification...
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Yes, it seems to me that the OS is more of an academic issue than a practical one. This said, there are always eventual pragmatic effects caused by the academic supposition adopted. I believe that anyone who loves the Lord with all his mind, heart, soul and strength, and loves his neighbor as himself is going in the right direction, on the right boat!

The Arminian viewpoint is, of course, the more correct perspective! 😇😂😎

Doug
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
civic said:
See here it lines up with the OP where Predestination precedes election. It also references all the historic confessions , catechisms , articles and and canons.

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I can see it both ways, and like you said Election and Reprobation Might belong under the umbrella of Predestination. I've never really decided between Infralapsarian and Supralapsarian; I don't know...

I probably never will...
 
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SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
civic said:
See here it lines up with the OP where Predestination precedes election. It also references all the historic confessions , catechisms , articles and and canons.

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But to me, who does God predestine? Those He elected. In my thinking, how can the elect be predestined prior to being chosen? I know this is within the mind of God and none of truly know His mind, but what we can glean from scripture, election logically precedes predestination.
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
civic said:
No its consistent with the Bible as only the elect will be saved.
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Not consistent with Bible; rather, consistent with TULIP.
TULIP: The communication of the gospel is effective only to the OP's elect.
Bible: The communication of the gospel is effective only to whosoever believes.
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
PeanutGallery said:
Not consistent with Bible; rather, consistent with TULIP.
TULIP: The communication of the gospel is effective only to the OP's elect.
Bible: The communication of the gospel is effective only to whosoever believes.
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are the elect those who believe ? yes or no
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
civic said:
are the elect those who believe ? yes or no
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Were the OP's elect chosen to believe, before the foundation of the world and before any had done any good or evil?
That is the issue; not whether they are 'elect' because they believed.
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
PeanutGallery said:
Were the OP's elect chosen to believe, before the foundation of the world and before any had done any good or evil?
That is the issue; not whether they are 'elect' because they believed.
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Sorry you do not get to dogpile questions as your answer.

Answer my question that I asked you. Show some respect and reciprocate for once. Until then I will not go down your rabbit trail re-asking the same question in a 100 different ways.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
PeanutGallery said:
Vague, not specific; are OP's 'elect' already in Christ or are they to be in Christ upon belief.
Scripture: those who believe become the elect in Christ.
OP's theology: those chosen to be 'elect' will believe.
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Sorry you have not answered my question to you and therefor have not earned the right to have me answer and more questions. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Until you do then please don't expect an answer from me anytime soon.

I'm not here to play your trivia games.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Please quote the Scripture that allegedly teaches we (1) first believe, and (2) only afterwards become "elect".

Scripture teaches we believe DURING OUR LIFETIME.
Scripture teaches we are elect "from BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD".

You have it exactly backwards.
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Exactly his pelagianism is showing
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Please quote the Scripture that allegedly teaches we (1) first believe, and (2) only afterwards become "elect".

Scripture teaches we believe DURING OUR LIFETIME.
Scripture teaches we are elect "from BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD".

You have it exactly backwards.
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Believe that you might have life; the faithful saints in Christ are chosen for spiritual blessings.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
PeanutGallery said:
Believe that you might have life; the faithful saints in Christ are chosen for spiritual blessings.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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Since this doesn't even MENTION "election", how can it possibly show that "election" comes AFTER "belief"?

#FAIL.

PeanutGallery said:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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Since this doesn't even MENTION "election", how can it possibly show that "election" comes AFTER "belief"?

#FAIL.
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Since this doesn't even MENTION "election", how can it possibly show that "election" comes AFTER "belief"?

#FAIL.



Since this doesn't even MENTION "election", how can it possibly show that "election" comes AFTER "belief"?

#FAIL.
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He is like all the others who think they are so smart with their trap questions . As if we have not heard them 100’s of times already from the opposition.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
civic said:
He is like all the others who think they are so smart with their trap questions . As if we have not heard them 100’s of times already from the opposition.
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I expect him to come back with something like, "being given eternal life" is "election".

And then of course, the resulting question would then be, where does Scripture make THAT equivalency?

They refuse to see how much they ASSUME their theology, and how little of it actually comes from Scripture.
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Since this doesn't even MENTION "election", how can it possibly show that "election" comes AFTER "belief"?...
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To the faithful saints who first believed in Christ are chosen/elected to spiritual blessings.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
PeanutGallery said:
To the faithful saints who first believed in Christ are chosen/elected to spiritual blessings.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
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Okay, so this shows that election is "before the foundation of the world".

So where does it say that "belief" occurs PRIOR to "before the foundation of the world"?

And did YOU "believe" before you were even born?
 
civic

civic

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Okay, so this shows that election is "before the foundation of the world".

So where does it say that "belief" occurs PRIOR to "before the foundation of the world"?

And did YOU "believe" before you were even born?
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Gotta love the reasoning of the pelagian
 
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