Origin of Spirits in Mormonism

I'm not interested in anti-Mormon sources because I'm not anti-Mormons. Mormons prefer anti-Christianity sources. Where does that leave you?

If D&C 76:24 came from God, which it didn't, Joseph Smith might have been referring to the true God, but he wasn't. He hated Christianity.

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

If that is "anti-Christianity" and written by someone who "hated Christianity"--it leaves one to wonder what you call "Christianity"?

James 1:5---King James Version
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

The LDS believe that.
 
I stuck around many years until God finally convinced me to get out. Long enough for Mormons would be the rest of my life! But I've studied Mormonism from Mormon sources for almost 60 years.

I know from statements made by false Mormon teachers (including Joseph Smith) and your Articles of Faith .

According to his multiple lies and criticisms of Christianity.. "I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true."--Joseph Smith - History 1

Spoken like a Mormon, of course, So when I claim I prayed, it's not good enough for Mormons because I prayed fervently to the True God.

Mormon covenants are not of God. When you are in a cult like Mormoniism, the true God says "Come out from among them and be ye separate."

I have sources. How many published sources does it take? I doubt that a provision of sources makes any difference to you.

Try Family Home Evening Manual, c. 1972, pages 125-126 for information about the origin of Jesus' physical body. i never spoke of procreation or sex concerning a heavenly mother. However single people per Mormonism do not parent children in the next life and "heavenly father" isn't single per Mormonism.

Janice--this is just a bunch of hooey given life through straw man projections and an animated mind. It's what you consider your personal experiences. It hasn't the first Biblical testimony. There is a difference between what you claim as your personal experiences, and the Biblical witness. That has been shown.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Care to engage that--and come off the straw man beds you lay out? Why not use the Bible to engage the OP you created--instead of your straw men?
 
I stuck around many years until God finally convinced me to get out. Long enough for Mormons would be the rest of my life! But I've studied Mormonism from Mormon sources for almost 60 years.
Yes. This is a common response of Mormon critics, that length of study is a credential to their "expertise". But, if all your studying is biased material, or if your trying to philosophize Mormonism from solely an intellectual standpoint, you're missing the forest for the trees.
For example, I could study the parable of the sower for a thousand years, but if I thought Jesus was giving instructions on farming then it really doesn't matter how long I study, does it?
I know from statements made by false Mormon teachers (including Joseph Smith) and your Articles of Faith .
And do you realize that "a prophet is a prophet when acting as such" and the key element in discerning when they are acting as a prophets? It's printed quite clearly in Mormon institute manuals
According to his multiple lies and criticisms of Christianity.. "I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true."--Joseph Smith - History 1
I'm trying to understand what your implying. Are you admitting when someone doesn't believe something they have bias? Thats a good point. What if said they studied it for 60 years, does the claim become more valid?
Spoken like a Mormon, of course,
Were you expecting me to disagree with scripture or something? Or maybe you feel that the Holy Ghost is not vital to discerning truth? What are you saying here?
So when I claim I prayed, it's not good enough for Mormons because I prayed fervently to the True God.
I never said that. It's between you and God. Great, I'm glad you got your answer, now go read the 11th Article and worship God within the dictates of your conscience, and permit me to do the same.
Mormon covenants are not of God. When you are in a cult like Mormoniism, the true God says "Come out from among them and be ye separate."
Your reason is as effective as BoJs. Your opinion backed by your opinion doesn't amount to much. Mormons can use that verse just the same as you do. But here's a question, suppose you were unequally yoked to a Mormon, what aspect of a Christian life would prevent you from being lived? What great sin are we committing other than your opinion that we're worshipping a false God? Why aren't you following Jesus counsel to leave the blind alone, and let the blind lead the blind, and stop performing the works of the flesh continuing in strife as listed in Galatians 5?
Your not living biblical standards, and now you're quoting scriptures not to be yoked with Mormons. What exactly are you doing?
I have sources. How many published sources does it take? I doubt that a provision of sources makes any difference to you.

Try Family Home Evening Manual, c. 1972, pages 125-126 for information about the origin of Jesus' physical body.
So the Family Home Evening manual is a Standard Work we should measure all men's teachings against? Can you prove that? The Church has a handbook clarifying this ya know. We don't have to guess, or need you to teach us, or anyone, our religion.
i never spoke of procreation or sex concerning a heavenly mother.
Stop telling us what you weren't saying, and tell us what you are saying. I'm mean your the Mormon expert of 60 years, right?
However single people per Mormonism do not parent children in the next life and "heavenly father" isn't single per Mormonism.
So you're implying that about procreation like BoJ? Ok. Well, I respectfully disagree. I believe marriage and the law of Chastity is more about understanding the relationship between the Father and the Son, (see Eph 5) which is preparatory to living the Law of Consecration to become of one heart and one mind.
 
It all depends how you define "god".
I consider "god" to be one holding authority, as the term is used Psalm 82. Yet, to be a king and a priest unto the Most High God.
In this thread I define God as having omnicience, omnipresent, omniscient....not as some simple human king holding authority.

You won't become a God.
 
In this thread I define God as having omnicience, omnipresent, omniscient....not as some simple human king holding authority.

You won't become a God.
According to bible scholars like Michael Heiser, the word elohim in Psalm 82 refers to all those beings that exist in a disembodied or spiritual existence. While Yahweh is an Elohim; no other elohim is the equal to Yahweh. The elohim in Psalm 82 are told that they failed in keeping faithfully the assignments that they were tasked with, and were to be judged like men. Those elohim do not possess the attributes of Yahweh like "omnicience, omnipresence, omniscience." Anyone who wants to identify themselves with the elohim in Psalm 82 have put themselves under the judgment and curse of Yahweh (" ... like men you shall die, and fall like any prince” ). IMO, that is not a good position in which to insert oneself, because we know where spiritual death is described.
 
According to bible scholars like Michael Heiser, the word elohim in Psalm 82 refers to all those beings that exist in a disembodied or spiritual existence. While Yahweh is an Elohim; no other elohim is the equal to Yahweh. The elohim in Psalm 82 are told that they failed in keeping faithfully the assignments that they were tasked with, and were to be judged like men. Those elohim do not possess the attributes of Yahweh like "omnicience, omnipresence, omniscience." Anyone who wants to identify themselves with the elohim in Psalm 82 have put themselves under the judgment and curse of Yahweh (" ... like men you shall die, and fall like any prince” ). IMO, that is not a good position in which to insert oneself, because we know where spiritual death is described.
Quite the rabbit trail...Interesting though.
Anyway...from what I heve read the mormons "god the father" who arts in heaven... was once a man like us.

Is there any mormon who disagree's with that?
 
Yes. This is a common response of Mormon critics, that length of study is a credential to their "expertise". But, if all your studying is biased material, or if your trying to philosophize Mormonism from solely an intellectual standpoint, you're missing the forest for the trees.
For example, I could study the parable of the sower for a thousand years, but if I thought Jesus was giving instructions on farming then it really doesn't matter how long I study, does it?
You made the accusartion "Or maybe you didn't stick around long enough."
So you're implying that about procreation like BoJ? Ok. Well, I respectfully disagree. I believe marriage and the law of Chastity is more about understanding the relationship between the Father and the Son, (see Eph 5) which is preparatory to living the Law of Consecration to become of one heart and one mind.

Or maybe you didn't stick around long enough.
I did not brag about 60 years! I wouldn't have mentioned the almost 60 years except for your snide remark concerning how long I stuck arouned. Nor did I claim to be a member that long! I have also never claimed to be an expert on anything. I am a human who is not stupid and who does not lie.

You don't have to believe anything anyone says about procreation. You believe exactly what you want to believe. That neither proves nor disproves what other Mormons or prophets teach.
 
Evidently there is an eternity of spirit matter (self-existing intelligence).

"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5)

"In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Conference Report, Oct. 1978, p. 18).
Who organized HF into a "spiritual body"?
 
Anyone who wants to identify themselves with the elohim in Psalm 82 have put themselves under the judgment and curse of Yahweh...

That's real interesting, especially since it is God Himself who took His place in the midst of those gods:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 
I did not brag about 60 years! I wouldn't have mentioned the almost 60 years except for your snide remark concerning how long I stuck arouned. Nor did I claim to be a member that long! I have also never claimed to be an expert on anything.
You miss the point. I know members who have been in the Church their whole lives and know very little about what their religion means.
That's all just frivolous detail that is only an attempt at appeal to authority. What matters is tracing the authenticity of a belief to it's roots, and understand why it's significant.

I am a human who is not stupid and who does not lie.
I'm not sure if I've argued otherwise - other than implying bizarre ideas.

You don't have to believe anything anyone says about procreation. You believe exactly what you want to believe. That neither proves nor disproves what other Mormons or prophets teach.
You're not wrong. Yet, what you fail to understand is why Mormonism is different than other religions - especially in contrast with Christian secularism. The Church isn't owned by any given prophet. We are not the cult you make us out to be. The theme is consistent through out our history. Joseph Smith wanted to know the truth, he prayed and received an answer for himself. We pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. We do not say "'Mormons' believe x, therefore, I must believe x."

If you believe that you're actually doing a service to the unknowing public revealing these teachings you think we're trying to hide, you're actually doing them a disfavor. We're not saved on the basis of our knowledge of Kolob. You're the epitome of exactly whom the Lord gave condemnation upon - because you treat the doctrines of the principles of the Book of Mormon lightly, and you choose to focus on frivolous and odd statements because someone said something somewhere, because you'd rather play silly "gotcha" games than focus on the weightier implications of our message.

Quote as many of those things you want, but expect that I'll keep calling you to the carpet to defend my religion, and placing those things in context.
 
LDS Hymn, O My Father

Text by Eliza R. Snow
VERSE 3:
I had learned to call thee Father,

Thru thy Spirit from on high,

But, until the key of knowledge

Was restored, I knew not why.

In the heav’ns are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason; truth eternal

Tells me I’ve a mother there.


If a Mormon believes that hymn, he should believe that HF had parents, too. There is no written infotmation about HF's mother, but gods are supposed to have wives for "a continuation of the seeds."


If the Mormons believe that hymn, they most likely believe HF had 2 parents. But besides that hymn and the King Follett sermon, . I don't think they've discussed it.
 
You miss the point. I know members who have been in the Church their whole lives and know very little about what their religion means.
Thats an accusation used towards former Mormons all the time… “ they didn’t really know what the church teaches.” And it’s just an attempt at slander. You have no idea what they knew.

That's all just frivolous detail that is only an attempt at appeal to authority. What matters is tracing the authenticity of a belief to its roots, and understand why it's significant.
We can easily trace Mormon doctrine to its roots, and we do it all the time here. But you even deny the authenticity when it came from Joseph Smith, when he claimed to receive it straight from God.

I'm not sure if I've argued otherwise - other than implying bizarre ideas.
Thats your opinion, and an insult.

You're not wrong. Yet, what you fail to understand is why Mormonism is different than other religions - especially in contrast with Christian secularism. The Church isn't owned by any given prophet.
You guys are constantly claiming the difference is ongoing revelation. But when you don’t like that “revelation,” you blame your prophets by saying it was just their opinions.

We are not the cult you make us out to be.
Mormonism is, by definition, a cult.

The theme is consistent through out our history. Joseph Smith wanted to know the truth, he prayed and received an answer for himself.
No, he claimed throughout his life that God spoke to him for the entire world.

We pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. We do not say "'Mormons' believe x, therefore, I must believe x."
Follow the prophets, they won’t lead you astray. A constant admonishment to Mormons.

If you believe that you're actually doing a service to the unknowing public revealing these teachings you think we're trying to hide, you're actually doing them a disfavor.
The truth does set you free. People deserve to know what they’re getting into. And they deserved to be warned about false prophets. That’s why Christ told us that, and how to recognize them.

We're not saved on the basis of our knowledge of Kolob. You're the epitome of exactly whom the Lord gave condemnation upon - because you treat the doctrines of the principles of the Book of Mormon lightly, and you choose to focus on frivolous and odd statements because someone said something somewhere, because you'd rather play silly "gotcha" games than focus on the weightier implications of our message.

Quote as many of those things you want, but expect that I'll keep calling you to the carpet to defend my religion, and placing those things in context.
Your arguments might go better without the personal insults.
 
You miss the point. I know members who have been in the Church their whole lives and know very little about what their religion means.
That's all just frivolous detail that is only an attempt at appeal to authority. What matters is tracing the authenticity of a belief to it's roots, and understand why it's significant.
You miss the truth. You don't know what matters. You have lots of opinions. Few people are interested in your opinions.


I'm not sure if I've argued otherwise - other than implying bizarre ideas.


You're not wrong. Yet, what you fail to understand is why Mormonism is different than other religions - especially in contrast with Christian secularism. The Church isn't owned by any given prophet. We are not the cult you make us out to be.
You apparently don't consider yourself in a cult. That's no skin off my back. You aren't God and have no clue what I understand or why.


The theme is consistent through out our history. Joseph Smith wanted to know the truth, he prayed and received an answer for himself. We pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. We do not say "'Mormons' believe x, therefore, I must believe x."

If you believe that you're actually doing a service to the unknowing public revealing these teachings you think we're trying to hide, you're actually doing them a disfavor. We're not saved on the basis of our knowledge of Kolob.
I don't care about Kolob and have probably never mentioned it.
You're the epitome of exactly whom the Lord gave condemnation upon
Thank you for the compliment.
- because you treat the doctrines of the principles of the Book of Mormon lightly, and you choose to focus on frivolous and odd statements because someone said something somewhere, because you'd rather play silly "gotcha" games than focus on the weightier implications of our message
This isn't a gotcha game or any kind of game at all.

Quote as many of those things you want, but expect that I'll keep calling you to the carpet to defend my religion, and placing those things in context.
You haven't been able to defend it yet.
 
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