Original Sin...

Exeter

Active member
where in scripture do you find the idea or concept of Adam as our represenatative, And what doe that mean?
The concept and doctrine is found not only in the parallels of Romans 5 as previously referenced, but also in the parallels of 1 Corinthians 15 as here:

1Co 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
where in scripture do you find the idea or concept of Adam as our represenatative, And what doe that mean?
Wow. I never expected someone not to understand this. In Genesis one reads that God gave Adam dominion over all creation, to be fruitful and multiply, and to subdue. As such, Adam was the representative of all creation, to include humanity. He was the head. The New Testament speaks to this as well. It speaks of those who are in Adam, and those who are in Christ. Representatives. We die in Adam, we live in Christ.

It is like being a member of a team where if the team loses, everyone loses. That is, consider a math contest where you have a team. Only one person can answer the question, and if they get it right, the whole team wins. If they get it wrong, the whole team loses. It is the reason why scripture says that by one man sin entered the world, and by sin death. This is why the concept of original sin exists. This is why sin has corrupted all of creation, and not just humanity. Adam had dominion over all creation, and by his sin, Satan gained dominion over the world.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Paul consistently affirms the sin nature all mankind inherits from Adam, all of us prior to regeneration being by nature children of wrath, dead in trespasses in sins as a result of Adam' sin in Eden.

Eph 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Exactly, past tense.

Jesus won.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
People still sin and experience the consequences of Adam's sin, which is why we get strawmen fallacies being used to displace Systematic Biblical Theology,

I don't believe in Adam's sin hemogonic rule. (that is an Satanic attachemnt)

Ok ..... we make mistakes and are not perfect.

What did Chrsit die for ..... NOT for us being perfect that is for sure.
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
People still sin and experience the consequences of Adam's sin, which is why we get strawmen fallacies being used to displace Systematic Biblical Theology,

You got systematic biblical theology for us to never be.

Why did Christ die?

"Adam's hedgemony theology" is ..... just a tad problematic.
 
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G

guest1

Guest
Here's a thought. If you took out terms like "Doctrine," "Original Sin," "Arminianism," "Calvinism," "Traditionalism," "Liberal," "Christian," "Unconditional Consequences," "Fall of Man," and "Generational Curse" you would be left only with having to describe simply what the Bible says. That is, the truth unimpeded by tradition. It's so much to poke around with that one has difficulty seeing the trees for the forest.
Good point
 
G

guest1

Guest
Not sure why you are asking me these questions, because if I answer you will say you are not interested to talk to me.
But if there are other interested posters.
The Bible says, as this poster posted, "BECAUSE all sinned"
Then the poster changes it to "THEREFORE all have sinned"

Still, I am not seeing scripturally how "original sin" makes all people sin.
It doesn't thats just is as augustine got that teaching from Gnosticism, Manicheanism, Stoicism. Church history confirms those facts except if one is a revisionist and is in denial.
 

Exeter

Active member
I don't believe in Adam's sin hemogonic rule. (that is an Satanic attachemnt)

Ok ..... we make mistakes and are not perfect.

What did Chrsit die for ..... NOT us being perfect that is for sure.
Best we stick to what Scripture teaches, as amply supplied for your edification.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till he come.

1. The Death of Christ is Real: as planned by God (1 Peter 1:18-21, Revelation 13:8, ), as pictured and prophesied (Isaiah 53:8-9,), as our passover (1 Corinthians 5:7, ), as payment by God at His own expense, forgiving the debt ( Matthew 20:28, Acts of the Apostles 20:28, 1 Corinthians 6:20,)

2. The Death of Christ is Voluntary: as submitted to by Him (John 10:17-18, Luke 22:42, Philippians 2:6-8, )

3. The Death of Christ is Sufficient: to deliver, reconcile, cleanse, and fill sinners with hope (John 19:30, Colossians 2:8-10, )

4. The Death of Christ is Dynamic: because it leads to the death of death's curse, power, and dominion (Isaiah 25:8, Acts of the Apostles 2:22-24, 1 Corinthians 15:54-57, Colossians 2:11-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 1:17-18, 20:14, 21:14, )

If the death of Christ is not a real death then no real payment for sin has been made, and the types and shadows of Old Testament sacrifices have not been fulfilled.

If the death of Christ is not voluntary
then it is not an obedient act of love.

If the death of Christ is not sufficient then there is more work to be done.

If the death of Christ is not dynamic then him who has the power of death is not destroyed, that is - the devil, and death is not swallowed up in victory.

Better to proclaim all these aspects of Christ's death than deny them...
I hope some find this material from my study notes helpful.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
The concept and doctrine is found not only in the parallels of Romans 5 as previously referenced, but also in the parallels of 1 Corinthians 15 as here:

1Co 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The word in question was "representative." I do not see that concept concerning Adam in the verses you are citing
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
So I guess you reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

You can't see how Adam sinning makes us all sinners, but you (presumably, please correct me if I'm wrong) have no problem seeing how Christ's righteousness makes us righteous.
Seems like a double standard to me.



I made sure not to include any questions in this latest post, since I know how badly that triggers you.
You're welcome.
No.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Wow. I never expected someone not to understand this. In Genesis one reads that God gave Adam dominion over all creation, to be fruitful and multiply, and to subdue. As such, Adam was the representative of all creation, to include humanity. He was the head. The New Testament speaks to this as well. It speaks of those who are in Adam, and those who are in Christ. Representatives. We die in Adam, we live in Christ.

It is like being a member of a team where if the team loses, everyone loses. That is, consider a math contest where you have a team. Only one person can answer the question, and if they get it right, the whole team wins. If they get it wrong, the whole team loses. It is the reason why scripture says that by one man sin entered the world, and by sin death. This is why the concept of original sin exists. This is why sin has corrupted all of creation, and not just humanity. Adam had dominion over all creation, and by his sin, Satan gained dominion over the world.
Maybe you are using some definition of the word "representative" that I have never heard of. Can you supply a short definition of that word? Maybe then I can understand what you are positing, because so far what you are saying has nothing to do with Adam being a representative according to what I know the word means
And then quote scripture that states what you are teaching?
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
For me,those who ignore and yank scripture out of context isn’t an honest nor intelligent exchange of truth.
I did not yank scripture out of context, but you did repeat yourself and then claim superiority. Why is it so difficult to have a simple straightforward conversation?

Maybe start with your false impression that I yanked scripture? Can you explain why you say that and how I divorced a verse's meaning from the context?
 

Exeter

Active member
The word in question was "representative." I do not see that concept concerning Adam in the verses you are citing
When you have time you might check out Strong's Concordance to help you "see that concept". . .

Strong G76
Ἀδάμ
Adam
ad-am'
Of Hebrew origin [H121]; Adam, the first man; typically (of Jesus) man (as his representative): - Adam.
Total KJV occurrences: 9

And also Matthew Henry's Commentary as per verses and notes below:

1Co 15:20-26 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

(23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. (24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

"All who die die through the sin of Adam; all who are raised, in the sense of the apostle, rise through the merit and power of Christ. But the meaning is not that, as all men died in Adam, so all men, without exception, shall be made alive in Christ; for the scope of the apostle's argument restrains the general meaning. Christ rose as the first-fruits; therefore those that are Christ's (1Co_15:23) shall rise too. Hence it will not follow that all men without exception shall rise too; but it will fitly follow that all who thus rise, rise in virtue of Christ's resurrection, and so that their revival is owing to the man Christ Jesus, as the mortality of all mankind was owing to the first man; and so, as by man came death, by man came deliverance. Thus it seemed fit to the divine wisdom that, as the first Adam ruined his posterity by sin, the second Adam should raise his seed to a glorious immortality"
 

armylngst

Well-known member
It doesn't thats just is as augustine got that teaching from Gnosticism, Manicheanism, Stoicism. Church history confirms those facts except if one is a revisionist and is in denial.
It doesn't. Adam's sin makes everyone die. I thought Paul was clear in Romans 5. And in the same way that we have original sin, we have original righteousness, that of Christ. In the way that we all die because of Adam, all believers live because of Christ. Once again, I thought Paul was quite clear in Romans 5.
 
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