Original Sin...

[armylngst]

Maybe you are using some definition of the word "representative" that I have never heard of. Can you supply a short definition of that word? Maybe then I can understand what you are positing, because so far what you are saying has nothing to do with Adam being a representative according to what I know the word means
And then quote scripture that states what you are teaching?

Consider a math contest. You have a group of 10 people who take part. However, only one person is allowed to give the answer. They are the representative of the group. If he gives the right answer, the whole team wins. If he gives the wrong answer, the whole team loses. As such, the loss passes on to the whole team, who may not have gotten the answer wrong themselves, like their representative did. As such, sin entered the world through one man, and by that, death. As such, loss entered the team through their representative, and by that, they all became losers.

 

[guest1]

It doesn't. Adam's sin makes everyone die. I thought Paul was clear in Romans 5. And in the same way that we have original sin, we have original righteousness, that of Christ. In the way that we all die because of Adam, all believers live because of Christ. Once again, I thought Paul was quite clear in Romans 5.

Nice dodge- the doctrine teaches total inability which is false.

 

[guest1]

Augustine borrowed that doctrinal idea from other streams? Why did Christians of his time buy what he was selling?

deception in his day and during the dark ages as well. deception goes back to the garden and has never stopped with mankind. It why there are so many warnings about it in scripture. Jesus talked about it all of the time and so did the Apostles in all their epistles- written to BELIEVERS.

If any man thinks they cannot be deceived its proof positive they can be or they already are deceived. You can take that to the bank.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Alexander the adequate]

When you have time you might check out Strong's Concordance to help you "see that concept". . .

Strong G76
Ἀδάμ
Adam
ad-am'
Of Hebrew origin [H121]; Adam, the first man; typically (of Jesus) man (as his representative): - Adam.
Total KJV occurrences: 9

And also Matthew Henry's Commentary as per verses and notes below:

ok. I was looking for the word "representative" in the Word, not in commentaries. If I missed it in any of your posts, just supply the verse reference where the word or concept appears and I will look again.
Forgive me if I am just missing something you said, sometimes in these conversations over a time period I get lost
But do me a favor and don't give me a page full, just the verse reference that has the word or concept of Adam as our "representative"

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Consider a math contest. You have a group of 10 people who take part. However, only one person is allowed to give the answer. They are the representative of the group. If he gives the right answer, the whole team wins. If he gives the wrong answer, the whole team loses. As such, the loss passes on to the whole team, who may not have gotten the answer wrong themselves, like their representative did. As such, sin entered the world through one man, and by that, death. As such, loss entered the team through their representative, and by that, they all became losers.

It is a nice illustration of the principle of imputation. But again the Word says that death spread to all because ALL sinned.
In your illustration, ALL did not give answers.

 

[Slyzr]

Nice dodge- the doctrine teaches total inability which is false.

Those darn chains ....

Well ....... let's just chain em up and redeem them later.

I agree .... bad doctrine.

 

[Slyzr]

It doesn't. Adam's sin makes everyone die. I thought Paul was clear in Romans 5. And in the same way that we have original sin, we have original righteousness, that of Christ. In the way that we all die because of Adam, all believers live because of Christ. Once again, I thought Paul was quite clear in Romans 5.

I don't like the doctrine

How is not living a doctrine.

Christ Victorious .....

For NOT killing us ....

Sure .... but this endless not being doctrine.

For Adam's hedge.

No thanks .....

 

[Exeter]

ok. I was looking for the word "representative" in the Word, not in commentaries. If I missed it in any of your posts, just supply the verse reference where the word or concept appears and I will look again.
Forgive me if I am just missing something you said, sometimes in these conversations over a time period I get lost
But do me a favor and don't give me a page full, just the verse reference that has the word or concept of Adam as our "representative"

What about the word "Bible"? Not actually in the Bible so not applicable to concepts or doctrines?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

What about the word "Bible"? Not actually in the Bible so not applicable to concepts or doctrines?

You may have skimmed my post, I was not asking for just that specific word. I also said the concept would suffice, where Adam is described as our representative. I am not aware of that so I wonder what the poster had in mind?

 

[Exeter]

But do me a favor and don't give me a page full, just the verse reference that has the word or concept of Adam as our "representative"

Would this passage be adequate?

Gen 3:17-19 To Adam he said, “Because you have listened to your wife’s voice, and ate from the tree, about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ the ground is cursed for your sake. You will eat from it with much labor all the days of your life. (18) It will yield thorns and thistles to you; and you will eat the herb of the field. (19) By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

 

[armylngst]

Nice dodge- the doctrine teaches total inability which is false.

I know. You believe Jesus lied when He answered the disciples question of "Then who can be saved", and Jesus answered with total inability. At least, that is what I believe the definition of IMPOSSIBLE is.

 

[armylngst]

It is a nice illustration of the principle of imputation. But again the Word says that death spread to all because ALL sinned.
In your illustration, ALL did not give answers.

All HAD answers. Did you read what I wrote? Some as bad as Adam the representative, some different and perhaps closer to being correct. Read Romans 5 again where it talks about Adam and sin, and that some may not have sinned the exact sin as Adam, but they are still sentenced to death. Why? Because of Adam. Once again, Paul is clear that sin and death entered the world through one man, Adam. Righteousness and eternal life entered the world through Christ.

 

[armylngst]

I don't like the doctrine

How is not living a doctrine.

Christ Victorious .....

For NOT killing us ....

Sure .... but this endless not being doctrine.

For Adam's hedge.

No thanks .....

Thank goodness it doesn't matter that you don't like the doctrine. You realize that if sin and death did not enter the world through Adam, then righteousness and eternal life cannot enter the world through Christ, right? Did you actually read what Paul wrote? In the same way that we became sinners/losers facing death because of Adam, our representative, so believers became righteous/winners facing eternal life because of Christ, their new representative. We do not save ourselves. (No matter how much you want to believe we do.) To believe that Adam is not our representative gives rise to the heresy of pelagianism, where we are our own righteousness, and we save ourselves, since, as you seem to believe, we bring sin into the world and death to ourselves, we didn't get it from Adam, even though Paul clearly states that sin and death entered into the world through one man, and so righteousness and life entered into the world through one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[guest1]

Do you accept the Doctrine of Original Sin?

If so, what would you say the Doctrine of Original Sin teaches?

If you don't accept it; why not?

I accept the Doctrine of Original sin. After being here at CARM Forums for so long now, I think Original Sin (or the lack there-of) plays a Fundamental part concerning the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism; and let's say Traditionalism and other Liberal Christian beliefs. So I'll start out by saying the Doctrine of Original Sin teaches there are "Unconditional Consequences" dealt out because of the Fall of Man, which are a Generational Curse...

No because it came from augustine via Manicheanism, Stoicism , Gnosticism, Paganism, Platonism. It was not part of the early church fathers ECF's teachings until augustine brought it into the church. Just the same as the doctrines of tulip, divine determination, Calvins view of Sovereignty were brought back into the church during the dark ages which he got from augustine. Those doctrines were never in the early church as well.

I would suggest toy do a deep dive study into early church history to see what the church taught from the Apostles they learned from in their writings.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Would this passage be adequate?

Gen 3:17-19 To Adam he said, “Because you have listened to your wife’s voice, and ate from the tree, about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ the ground is cursed for your sake. You will eat from it with much labor all the days of your life. (18) It will yield thorns and thistles to you; and you will eat the herb of the field. (19) By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Again, maybe you are using the word "representative" in a way I am unfamiliar with. If Adam was our representative to God, then there would be a verse saying He comes to God on our behalf.
What you posted shows that we suffer because of His sin, not that he represents us to God.
Or if you meant that he suffers on our behalf, then it would mean that we don't suffer?

So again, why the word "representative"?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Thank goodness it doesn't matter that you don't like the doctrine. You realize that if sin and death did not enter the world through Adam, then righteousness and eternal life cannot enter the world through Christ, right? Did you actually read what Paul wrote? In the same way that we became sinners/losers facing death because of Adam, our representative, so believers became righteous/winners facing eternal life because of Christ, their new representative. We do not save ourselves. (No matter how much you want to believe we do.) To believe that Adam is not our representative gives rise to the heresy of pelagianism, where we are our own righteousness, and we save ourselves, since, as you seem to believe, we bring sin into the world and death to ourselves, we didn't get it from Adam, even though Paul clearly states that sin and death entered into the world through one man, and so righteousness and life entered into the world through one man, Jesus Christ.

because all sinned. That seems to be forgotten in these discussions. Because all sinned.
Death spreads to each human because all sin,

 

[guest1]

because all sinned. That seems to be forgotten in these discussions. Because all sinned.
Death spreads to each human because all sin,

yes they don't sin in the womb or until they are old enough to understand what sin is which is why the doctrine of the age of accountability was formed.Even calvin affirmed it lol which contradicts his own theology of the T in the flower lol.

I started a thread on that a while ago I will see if I can link it

found it see below notice the contraditions with his own theology, even calvin noticed it lol. flip flopping.

Who’s Sin…

I think something inside of you instinctively alerts you that to put goodness inside of humanity is somehow fundamentally wrong to the Gospel. You have sown a lot of truth over the years. Not at all . Until one sins there is no guilt of sin. I can give you a dozen verses that affirm it .

forums.carm.org

 

[Alexander the adequate]

All HAD answers. Did you read what I wrote? Some as bad as Adam the representative, some different and perhaps closer to being correct. Read Romans 5 again where it talks about Adam and sin, and that some may not have sinned the exact sin as Adam, but they are still sentenced to death. Why? Because of Adam. Once again, Paul is clear that sin and death entered the world through one man, Adam. Righteousness and eternal life entered the world through Christ.

Maybe a clue is that death entered the world, not death entered each person
In both Adam's and Christ's case, death and righteousness are in the world, but it is up to the individual to participate

 

[guest1]

my link above should end the discussion in this thread and show the fallacy with the doctrine of original sin- even calvin flip flopped and saw his own doctrinal dilemma

 

[guest1]

I'm so glad I have been set free from the doctrines of men as we see from calvins own contradictory beliefs on the topic of original sin. You cannot have your cake and eat it too as they say. Just one of the dozens of reasons I can no longer be a calvinist and affirm the doctrines of grace.

hope this helps !!!