Other Arks of Salvation

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Finally, Roman Catholicism has at last come upon one of their heresies which was a betrayal of all that the Roman Catholic Church had always taught and steadfastly believed, and that belief was that the Roman Catholic Church was the ONLY 'ark of salvation.' Apparently they finally realized that the Holy Spirit was not a dove confined to a cage within Vatican City. According to Unitatis redintegratio, the 3rd Person of the Most Sacred Trinity had been winging its way into the non-Roman Catholic churches, filling their sanctuaries with grace and granting Protestants the means of salvation, even though they opposed sacred Roman Catholic dogmas regarding the papacy, the Virgin Mary, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, and the 7 sacraments. What are you thoughts on this unexpected new belief for the Roman Catholic Church to teach now?
 
Can Novus Ordo Catholics please explain how the following dogmatic statements can be reconciled to each other and represent a uniformity of belief and both conform to the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

How is this....

"The separated churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."
(Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

In conformity with this:

“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” - Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Can Novus Ordo Catholics please explain how the following dogmatic statements can be reconciled to each other and represent a uniformity of belief and both conform to the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

How is this....

"The separated churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."
(Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

In conformity with this:

“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” - Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896
Sure. It is all related to how you view the Catholic Church constitutionally. If the Catholic Church is only those Christians who are in communion with Rome, then that limits the bounds of the Church; however, if the Church can contain members subsumed within Her though visibly not in communion with Rome, that extends the bounds.

I think the key question is this: Does salvation come from being a member of the Church or does being a member of the Church come from being saved? I'd say both are true. However, this doesn't seem like it can be the case with a limited Church boundary. Leo XIII isn't really defining the nature of the Church here but addressing heretics and since most Protestants are not heretics (most would be invincibly ignorant of their broken relationship with the magisterium), it doesn't seem to speak to them.

Ironically, MF, if you deny the Second Vatican Council, then you would fit under someone who is "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church" since you disagree with a "point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium".
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Finally, Roman Catholicism has at last come upon one of their heresies which was a betrayal of all that the Roman Catholic Church had always taught and steadfastly believed, and that belief was that the Roman Catholic Church was the ONLY 'ark of salvation.' Apparently they finally realized that the Holy Spirit was not a dove confined to a cage within Vatican City. According to Unitatis redintegratio, the 3rd Person of the Most Sacred Trinity had been winging its way into the non-Roman Catholic churches, filling their sanctuaries with grace and granting Protestants the means of salvation, even though they opposed sacred Roman Catholic dogmas regarding the papacy, the Virgin Mary, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, and the 7 sacraments. What are you thoughts on this unexpected new belief for the Roman Catholic Church to teach now?
It think it's fine and not that new an idea in the Church.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
It think it's fine and not that new an idea in the Church.
What do either of you think of this portion of the decree which says:
"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the [Roman] Catholic Church; the written word of God, the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
What do either of you think of this portion of the decree which says:
"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the [Roman] Catholic Church; the written word of God, the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."
Sure.
 

Septextura

Active member
Their soteriology now teaches even if you paint marmalade on green balloons religiously, you will be saved by your good works according to your own conscience. Purgatory will do the proper cleansing anyways. So anything goes, even atheism, except High Calvinism and the AKJV. For some reason they still really really hate those.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Their soteriology now teaches even if you paint marmalade on green balloons religiously, you will be saved by your good works according to your own conscience. Purgatory will do the proper cleansing anyways. So anything goes, even atheism, except High Calvinism and the AKJV. For some reason they still really really hate those.
I think it's probably because atheists can be good humoured whereas high Calvinists are a dour bunch. ;-)
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Can Novus Ordo Catholics please explain how the following dogmatic statements can be reconciled to each other and represent a uniformity of belief and both conform to the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

How is this....

"The separated churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."
(Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

In conformity with this:

“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” - Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896
So, are these doctrinal statements then basically saying that former Roman Catholic catechism lessons had been in error, along with the RCC's proclamation that the Roman Catholic Church alone possessed the truth and were the only dispenser of sanctifying grace, and also renouncing their long-standing teaching and belief that the Roman Catholic Church alone possesses the full means of salvation?
 
Your thoughts, MF......?

Since
The dogma of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is one of the most well know and frequently proclaimed dogmas of the Catholic Church. It has been dogmatically proclaimed by popes on numerous occasions as well as by saints, doctors of the Church and Her theologians. It has been consistently taught by the Church up to the Second Vatican Council.

The teaching of Vatican II represents a direct contradiction of the De fide dogma of Ecclesiam nulla salus. Vatican II did this by proclaiming a novel heretical ecclesiology of the Church itself. Vatican II redefined what the Catholic Church IS, in its essence.

In the document Lumen Gentium, instead of saying the Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church, it says that the Church of Christ "subsists in" the Catholic Church. This new ecclesiology is a product of ecumenism.

In the new ecclesiology, the Church of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are not one and the same thing, since non-Catholic churches belong to the Church of Christ, but not to the Catholic Church.

The Church of Christ, although it does not subsist in non-Catholic churches, because they lack the "fullness" of the Catholic Church is nevertheless found in these non-Catholic churches in an imperfect way.

Non-Catholic churches are therefore truly "particular churches" which make up, together with the Roman Catholic Church, the one Church of Christ. The Roman Catholic Church is in "partial communion" with these non-Catholic churches, to the extent that they have elements of the Church of Christ.

These non-Catholic churches then, are "means of salvation" to the extent that they preserve the genuine elements of the Church of Christ.

The new ecclesiology reduces the Church of Christ to an amalgamation of different churches with different and contradicting doctrines, disciplines, and hierarchies, of which the Catholic Church is just one choice among many.

This is in complete contradiction to the traditional ecclesiology which has always been taught that there is but one Church of Christ, and it is the Roman Catholic Church. It is the one true Church outside of which there is no salvation.

The Roman Catholic Church is absolutely and exclusively identified with the Mystical Body of Christ. They are one and the same thing. There is no distinction to make. The Mystical Body IS the Roman Catholic Church considered as a comparison to Christ's physical body, where He is the Head and we the members.
 
Ironically, MF, if you deny the Second Vatican Council, then you would fit under someone who is "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church" since you disagree with a "point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium".
I always find it ironic that Novus Ordo "Catholics" accept and are tolerant of every religion on the face of the earth, except Catholicism.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I always find it ironic that Novus Ordo "Catholics" accept and are tolerant of every religion on the face of the earth, except Catholicism.
I'm not going to argue with you here, MF (that's precisely what is trying to be instigated). I attend both Extraordinary and Ordinary form Masses and love them both.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
I always find it ironic that Novus Ordo "Catholics" accept and are tolerant of every religion on the face of the earth, except Catholicism.
I find it interesting now since the RCC declares that Protestant churches contain the spiritual elements necessary for humanity's salvation, but all the while denying the cardinal tenets of the Roman Church, the question is why should Roman Catholics abide by the special precepts of their faith?
 
I find it interesting now since the RCC declares that Protestant churches contain the spiritual elements necessary for humanity's salvation, but all the while denying the cardinal tenets of the Roman Church, the question is why should Roman Catholics abide by the special precepts of their faith?
Yes, that's actually a good point, and most Novus Ordites don't get it.

Why would anyone become Catholic when the Catholic Church itself (actually the false Novus Ordo sect) says that schismatic and heretic sects are "a means of salvation", the "plan of salvation" includes the Muslims, and the Jews have their own covenant?

Vatican II also praised the pagan religions of Hinduism and Buddhism and even says that that one can be an atheist through no fault of his
own and attain Divine grace. Vatican II "popes" have also participated in ecumenical assemblies or prayer meetings, such as Assisi, in which they place every heretic and pagan religion on equal footing as the their Novus Ordo sect.

They also miss the point that many of them are tolerant of every religion on the face of the earth, but only bear an animosity towards those that actually practice the Catholic Faith as their ancestors practiced for a millennia.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Well, I think those Roman Catholics are now asking each other, and their priests, why they weren't allowed the religious liberty of Protestants - i.e., the right to eat meat on Friday, to skip Mass on Sunday and other holy days of obligation, to practice birth control, and to divorce their spouses.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Knowing that the RCC no longer teaches that they are the only 'ark of salvation', why are Roman Catholics still obliged, (unlike their 'separated brethren'), to confess their sins to their parish priest and obtain pronouncements of absolution?
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Can Novus Ordo Catholics please explain how the following dogmatic statements can be reconciled to each other and represent a uniformity of belief and both conform to the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

How is this....

"The separated churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fulness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."
(Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 3)

In conformity with this:

“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” - Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896
From your point of view, do you think for instance, that the marriages of couples who wed outside of the Roman Catholic Church will be recognized as valid now? And when it comes to a Protestant who wishes to marry a Roman Catholic do you think the RCC will do away with the couple having to sign "pre-Cana" agreement before marriage?
 
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