Other "gods"

Theo1689

Well-known member
We have repeatedly seen all the passages (which Mormons ignore) that plainly teach (1) only one god exists, (2) "there is NO other", and (3) the omniscient god who does exist "knows not any other gods".

Many of these passages (Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9) come from a section of text referred to as "the trial of the false gods".

God is tired of his people leaving Him to whore after the false gods of the nations, and put them "on trial".
He calls them out:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”

He calls out the false gods of the nations, and challenges them to:
1) show themselves (they cannot, for they do not exist)
2) Declare what is to come, and what will happen (they cannot, for they are not gods, and do not exist).

There is absolutely NOTHING here about, "yeah, other gods exist, but we should ignore them and only worship our own". It is quite clear that God is proclaiming, "NO OTHER GODS EXIST OTHER THAN ME."


Now, one particular poster here claims that in the "context" of EVERY "only one god exists" passage, the context acknowledges that other gods DO actually exist. But for some reason, he is never able to DEMONSTRATE this. But it is very interesting what we see when we search on occurrences of "gods" plural, in Isaiah, where we have all these passages saying "no other gods exist, I am the only one".

The plural term, "gods" occurs 8 times in Isaiah, and NONE of them teach "other true gods exist". And NONE of these instances of "gods" plural occurs in the range of Isa. 43-46, where we repeatedly see God saying that no other god exists.

Isa_21:9 And behold, here come riders, horsemen in pairs!” And he answered, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the carved images of her gods he has shattered to the ground.”

This refers to Babylon's gods, who are all "carved images".
Meaning idols, not "true gods".

Isa_36:18 Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, “The LORD will deliver us.” Has any of the gods of the nations delivered his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
Isa_36:19 Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria out of my hand?
Isa_36:20 Who among all the gods of these lands have delivered their lands out of my hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?’”

This section describes Hezekiah "misleading" people by calling on the gods of Hamath and Arpad", and "the gods of Sepharvaim".

Have any of these "gods" delivered you out of his hand?
Nope. And they cannot, for they are all false gods, gods who do not exist.
That's why God asks those rhetorical questions.

Isa_37:12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar?
Isa_37:19 and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed.

Again, God brings rhetorical questions, "have the gods of the nations delivered them?"
Of course not. They didn't, because they can't. They are false gods, idols, who don't exist.
They were "the work of men's hands, wood and stone, destroyed", "cast ... into the fire."

Isa_41:23 Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified.

This is part of God's challenge, when he has the false gods on trial.
He challenges them to PROVE they are true gods. Do something "godly".
"Do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified".

But we hear nothing, crickets, because these "gods" are false gods, figments of the imaginations of the pagans, and can do nothing for they do not exist.

Isa_42:17 They are turned back and utterly put to shame, who trust in carved idols, who say to metal images, “You are our gods.”

Again, the mention of these "gods" are those that are "carved idols", and "metal images", and not true gods at all.



So where is this "context", that BoJ keeps harping about, that "proves" that true gods actually exist among the assertions that YHWH is the only god who DOES actually exist? EVERY SINGLE reference to "gods" (plural) in Isaiah refers to IDOLS, false gods.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Um, Mormons....?

Nobody wants to actually discuss MORMONISM?
I'm not actually informed enough to discuss Mormonism. I know a lot of the basic stuff and seen movies about how terrible the leadership is. But I've never done an in-depth study till today. I have a couple of books that are real eye-openers. But since I heard you're the go to guy on Mormonism I plan to continue my education right here. Going to keep my mouth shut and just lurk and learn.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm not actually informed enough to discuss Mormonism. I know a lot of the basic stuff and seen movies about how terrible the leadership is. But I've never done an in-depth study till today. I have a couple of books that are real eye-openers. But since I heard you're the go to guy on Mormonism I plan to continue my education right here. Going to keep my mouth shut and just lurk and learn.
Magdalena used to be a Mormon, but by the grace of God, the Holy Spirit led her out of that pseudo-Christian cult into the light of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. I have been on this board for over 8 years and have read and learned a lot about Mormonism in that time, reading several books on the subject. I have found 2 websites especially helpful: utlm.org and mrm.org. Both are gentle sites that do not bash the Mormon people themselves, but simply show the truth about their faith, church, and founder--and use scads of actual Mormon writings to do so.

May I ask what books you have read that were "eye openers"?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Magdalena used to be a Mormon, but by the grace of God, the Holy Spirit led her out of that pseudo-Christian cult into the light of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. I have been on this board for over 8 years and have read and learned a lot about Mormonism in that time, reading several books on the subject. I have found 2 websites especially helpful: utlm.org and mrm.org. Both are gentle sites that do not bash the Mormon people themselves, but simply show the truth about their faith, church, and founder--and use scads of actual Mormon writings to do so.

May I ask what books you have read that were "eye openers"?
Thanks for the words of encouragement as I'm very excited to be doing this study on Mormonism. Yesterday I read all the posts here from you and Theo and a few from Magdalena. They were all helpful and informative. I just happened to find utlm.org yesterday and have it bookmarked. I'll take a look at mrm.org today. I did happen to find an excellent movie on Amazon Prime called the Bible vs. Joseph Smith (free at this link).Talk about eye-opener it's filmed in Israel and shows the Brigham Young University there.

I like what you said about gentle sites that don't bash Mormons. I understand how hard it is not to get your feathers up when dealing with people that are walking in darkness. And that I have to remind myself be gentle. That's what my wife tells me all the time when I'm playing with my dogs "Gently".

My trip is I have a friend who's in my life group, It's like a growth group from church except we do it at home. Will now we're doing it on zoom. Anyway he's an ex-Mormon and I believe he is still struggling with being a Christian. So my goal is to see if I can work with him and Help get him set free, you know... who the Son sets free is free indeed. Point him in the right direction and plant some seeds.

These are the two books I was referring to, thy are their not completely about Mormonism but they have large sections devoted to that topic.

The Trinity: Evidences and Issues by Robert Morey
and
CSB Apologetics Study Bible for Students

This one I picked up yesterday and I've only read a couple of chapters and it's extremely good.

Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors / by John R. Farkas and David A. Reed.

Then today I couldn't help myself and purchased these two.


The Mormon Deception by John Weldon

and

Is Mormonism Christian?: Mormon Doctrine compared with Biblical Christianity
Author: Fraser, Gordon H.


So you can see why I appreciate your encouragement thanks again.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I'm not actually informed enough to discuss Mormonism.

I find it kind of interesting you don't know enough to discuss Mormonism--yet--you are quick to condemn them. How does that work?

I know a lot of the basic stuff and seen movies about how terrible the leadership is. But I've never done an in-depth study till today.

So--a one day "in depth" study, eh?

I have a couple of books that are real eye-openers. But since I heard you're the go to guy on Mormonism I plan to continue my education right here. Going to keep my mouth shut and just lurk and learn.

LOL!!! And who told you he was the "go to guy" on Mormonism? That's like appealing to Stalin as the go to guy for democracy.

That says a lot--does it not? That you would go to a critic, rather than an LDS member themselve--to get the facts?
 

organgrinder

Active member
Redeemed... don't worry about the Mormon who posted after you. He can never answer a straight question and diverts when he is perplexed by asking the same questions over... and over...and over.

An easy read is "Unveiling Grace" by Lynn Wilder. She was an LDS convert and a former BYU teacher. Her missionary son because born again and found the true Jesus of the Bible. The Wilder book discusses what happened, the maze that Mormons are in, the beliefs and how it differentiates from Christianity. Good solid testimony of God's unfailing grace that was unveiled to a couple of true believers and the family. Worth the purchase for sure and something from which our friend in the small group would benefit.
 
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Redeemed

Well-known member
I find it kind of interesting you don't know enough to discuss Mormonism--yet--you are quick to condemn them. How does that work?



So--a one day "in depth" study, eh?



LOL!!! And who told you he was the "go to guy" on Mormonism? That's like appealing to Stalin as the go to guy for democracy.

That says a lot--does it not? That you would go to a critic, rather than an LDS member themselve--to get the facts?
So in my second day of my in-depth study on Mormonism I've come to the conclusion that you're definitely not going to be a part of it.
Redeemed... don't worry about the Mormon who posted after you. He can never answer a straight question and diverts when he is perplexed by asking the same questions over... and over...and over.

an easy read is "Unveiling Grace" by Lynn wilder. She was an LDS convert and a former BYU teacher. Her missionary son because born again and found the true Jesus of the Bible. The Wilder book discusses what happened, the maze that Mormons are in, the beliefs and how it differentiates from Christianity. Good solid testimony of God's unfailing grace that was unveiled to a couple of true believers and the family. worth the purchase for sure and something from which our friend in the small group would benefit.
Thank you I'm looking up the book right now
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Redeemed... don't worry about the Mormon who posted after you. He can never answer a straight question and diverts when he is perplexed by asking the same questions over... and over...and over.

An easy read is "Unveiling Grace" by Lynn Wilder. She was an LDS convert and a former BYU teacher. Her missionary son because born again and found the true Jesus of the Bible. The Wilder book discusses what happened, the maze that Mormons are in, the beliefs and how it differentiates from Christianity. Good solid testimony of God's unfailing grace that was unveiled to a couple of true believers and the family. Worth the purchase for sure and something from which our friend in the small group would benefit.
I I found a ton of her stuff online. I did look at her book yesterday but I bought three others instead and if I buy anymore my wife will Give me a hard time and I'm trying to keep her happy:love:. Well that I did didn't work. I did end up getting this one is right now:

Here's a link YouTube video I found entitled

Logical Fallacies in Mormon Teachings

With guest: Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, Professor & Co-Founder of Ex-Mormon Christians United for Jesus Website: UnveilingMormonism.com
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
I have found 2 websites especially helpful: utlm.org and mrm.org. Both are gentle sites that do not bash the Mormon people themselves, but simply show the truth about their faith, church, and founder--and use scads of actual Mormon writings to do so.

May I ask what books you have read that were "eye openers"?

I highly recommend James White's book, "Letters to a Mormon Elder". It is a hypothetical account that addresses all the standard Mormon presentations and good Christian rebuttals. And it is written in a very polite and irenic manner, as the approach is to convince the Mormons to look at what the Bible says, and to keep discussion going.

It's been a while since I've read it, but as I recall each chapter was about a different topic, namely monotheism, or salvation by faith, or Joseph Smith and his "first visions", etc. etc.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I highly recommend James White's book, "Letters to a Mormon Elder". It is a hypothetical account that addresses all the standard Mormon presentations and good Christian rebuttals. And it is written in a very polite and irenic manner, as the approach is to convince the Mormons to look at what the Bible says, and to keep discussion going.

It's been a while since I've read it, but as I recall each chapter was about a different topic, namely monotheism, or salvation by faith, or Joseph Smith and his "first visions", etc. etc.
Thanks for the suggestion; I will look into it. I have a lot of respect for White; he helped me quite a bit years ago, when I was on the JW board when I first started coming onto CARM.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I I found a ton of her stuff online. I did look at her book yesterday but I bought three others instead and if I buy anymore my wife will Give me a hard time and I'm trying to keep her happy:love:. Well that I did didn't work. I did end up getting this one is right now:

Here's a link YouTube video I found entitled

Logical Fallacies in Mormon Teachings

With guest: Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, Professor & Co-Founder of Ex-Mormon Christians United for Jesus Website: UnveilingMormonism.com
Hi Redeemed! I have that "7 reasons" book, too. I actually met the lady and her husband at a pastors' convention in Florida about 7 years ago. She and her husband were guest speakers. I had already read her book on my Kindle, but she was giving away the "7 reasons" book. Her husband is more reticent than Lynn is. She is a delightful lady, very warm hearted, and with a good sense of humor. I have corresponded with her, asking her to clarify a few things for me about the LDS church and she always graciously answered me.

A Mormon who is no longer on these boards and hasn't been in nearly 2 years told lies about her and her husband and the positions they held as Mormons. Claimed her husband Mike lied about the positions he held, but that is not true.

Unveiling Grace leads up to a crescendo near the end of the book, when Mike and Lynn separately started reading the NIV NT separately. She had taught the NT in her church ward, but not systematically, but chopped up. They would get together at night and discuss what each had read, and since they were reading to find the truth, their hearts and minds were open to receive it, and boy--! Did they! At first, they only read the Gospels. They wanted only Jesus' words at first. But the gracious HS led them through the rest of the NT and they began to see all the errors they had believed in, in their church. Stuff they had read before but had not sunk in suddenly popped out them and hit them right between the eyes--like John 1:12-13, and Eph. 2:8-9.

Say, you could always buy a good used copy cheaply from Amazon. I got tired of looking up stuff in the book on my tablet, so I decided to get a good used copy. I am glad I did; much easier to find stuff now.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Hi Redeemed! I have that "7 reasons" book, too. I actually met the lady and her husband at a pastors' convention in Florida about 7 years ago. She and her husband were guest speakers. I had already read her book on my Kindle, but she was giving away the "7 reasons" book. Her husband is more reticent than Lynn is. She is a delightful lady, very warm hearted, and with a good sense of humor. I have corresponded with her, asking her to clarify a few things for me about the LDS church and she always graciously answered me.

A Mormon who is no longer on these boards and hasn't been in nearly 2 years told lies about her and her husband and the positions they held as Mormons. Claimed her husband Mike lied about the positions he held, but that is not true.

Unveiling Grace leads up to a crescendo near the end of the book, when Mike and Lynn separately started reading the NIV NT separately. She had taught the NT in her church ward, but not systematically, but chopped up. They would get together at night and discuss what each had read, and since they were reading to find the truth, their hearts and minds were open to receive it, and boy--! Did they! At first, they only read the Gospels. They wanted only Jesus' words at first. But the gracious HS led them through the rest of the NT and they began to see all the errors they had believed in, in their church. Stuff they had read before but had not sunk in suddenly popped out them and hit them right between the eyes--like John 1:12-13, and Eph. 2:8-9.

Say, you could always buy a good used copy cheaply from Amazon. I got tired of looking up stuff in the book on my tablet, so I decided to get a good used copy. I am glad I did; much easier to find stuff now.
I'm actually watching a video with her on Amazon prime it's entitled "Mormons" right now, I just put it on pause after reading your post.
What really hit me about your post is when you wrote about her and her husband getting together and sharing the word together. It really made me think of Matthew 18:19-20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. That really hit me.

The part I'm watching right now in the video she just got a call from her son telling her it's over he's done with the Mormons apparently he was on his two-year mission trip and they're not allowed to call home during that time so she knew something was up when she answered the phone.

Yeah I'm just having myself a ball studying this stuff and. But I'm afraid I will have to put unveiling grace on my wish for list for now. I already have the book Theo recommended James White's book, "Letters to a Mormon Elder. Let's see here Christmas is coming up, this could happen.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Thanks for the suggestion; I will look into it. I have a lot of respect for White; he helped me quite a bit years ago, when I was on the JW board when I first started coming onto CARM.
James White... I knew there were people here that knew what they were talking about yourself and Theo included along with several others. I like to listen to intelligent people talking about the Bible. I learn stuff.
 

Magdalena

Active member
Some books I recommend include Nauvoo Polygamy, by George D. Smith; Blood of the Prophets, by Will Bagley; In Sacred Loneliness, by Todd Compton.

This website is a goldmine of information, run by co-founder Sandra Tanner, who is a sweet and very knowledgeable Christian woman and historian.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
We have repeatedly seen all the passages (which Mormons ignore) that plainly teach (1) only one god exists, (2) "there is NO other", and (3) the omniscient god who does exist "knows not any other gods".

Many of these passages (Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9) come from a section of text referred to as "the trial of the false gods".

God is tired of his people leaving Him to whore after the false gods of the nations, and put them "on trial".
He calls them out:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”

He calls out the false gods of the nations, and challenges them to:
1) show themselves (they cannot, for they do not exist)
2) Declare what is to come, and what will happen (they cannot, for they are not gods, and do not exist).

There is absolutely NOTHING here about, "yeah, other gods exist, but we should ignore them and only worship our own". It is quite clear that God is proclaiming, "NO OTHER GODS EXIST OTHER THAN ME."


Now, one particular poster here claims that in the "context" of EVERY "only one god exists" passage, the context acknowledges that other gods DO actually exist. But for some reason, he is never able to DEMONSTRATE this. But it is very interesting what we see when we search on occurrences of "gods" plural, in Isaiah, where we have all these passages saying "no other gods exist, I am the only one".

The plural term, "gods" occurs 8 times in Isaiah, and NONE of them teach "other true gods exist". And NONE of these instances of "gods" plural occurs in the range of Isa. 43-46, where we repeatedly see God saying that no other god exists.

Isa_21:9 And behold, here come riders, horsemen in pairs!” And he answered, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the carved images of her gods he has shattered to the ground.”

This refers to Babylon's gods, who are all "carved images".
Meaning idols, not "true gods".

Isa_36:18 Beware lest Hezekiah mislead you by saying, “The LORD will deliver us.” Has any of the gods of the nations delivered his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
Isa_36:19 Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim? Have they delivered Samaria out of my hand?
Isa_36:20 Who among all the gods of these lands have delivered their lands out of my hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?’”

This section describes Hezekiah "misleading" people by calling on the gods of Hamath and Arpad", and "the gods of Sepharvaim".

Have any of these "gods" delivered you out of his hand?
Nope. And they cannot, for they are all false gods, gods who do not exist.
That's why God asks those rhetorical questions.

Isa_37:12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them, the nations that my fathers destroyed, Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden who were in Telassar?
Isa_37:19 and have cast their gods into the fire. For they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone. Therefore they were destroyed.

Again, God brings rhetorical questions, "have the gods of the nations delivered them?"
Of course not. They didn't, because they can't. They are false gods, idols, who don't exist.
They were "the work of men's hands, wood and stone, destroyed", "cast ... into the fire."

Isa_41:23 Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified.

This is part of God's challenge, when he has the false gods on trial.
He challenges them to PROVE they are true gods. Do something "godly".
"Do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified".

But we hear nothing, crickets, because these "gods" are false gods, figments of the imaginations of the pagans, and can do nothing for they do not exist.

Isa_42:17 They are turned back and utterly put to shame, who trust in carved idols, who say to metal images, “You are our gods.”

Again, the mention of these "gods" are those that are "carved idols", and "metal images", and not true gods at all.



So where is this "context", that BoJ keeps harping about, that "proves" that true gods actually exist among the assertions that YHWH is the only god who DOES actually exist? EVERY SINGLE reference to "gods" (plural) in Isaiah refers to IDOLS, false gods.
Hi Theo--did you read what else is in Is. 36?

12 But the commander replied, “Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the people sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own excrement and drink their own urine?”

13 Then the commander stood and called out in Hebrew, “Hear the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! 14 This is what the king says: Do not let Hezekiah deceive you. He cannot deliver you! 15 Do not let Hezekiah persuade you to trust in the Lord when he says, ‘The Lord will surely deliver us; this city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’

Hezekiah was a good guy; one of the few kings of Judah who kept his faith until death. But it sounds as if the Assyrian king was telling the people of Jerusalem not to let Hezekiah "deceive" them by telling them that he cannot deliver them, nor can the LORD. Hezekiah wasn't doing the deception. Or did I misread you?
I'm actually watching a video with her on Amazon prime it's entitled "Mormons" right now, I just put it on pause after reading your post.
What really hit me about your post is when you wrote about her and her husband getting together and sharing the word together. It really made me think of Matthew 18:19-20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. That really hit me.

The part I'm watching right now in the video she just got a call from her son telling her it's over he's done with the Mormons apparently he was on his two-year mission trip and they're not allowed to call home during that time so she knew something was up when she answered the phone.

Yeah I'm just having myself a ball studying this stuff and. But I'm afraid I will have to put unveiling grace on my wish for list for now. I already have the book Theo recommended James White's book, "Letters to a Mormon Elder. Let's see here Christmas is coming up, this could happen.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm actually watching a video with her on Amazon prime it's entitled "Mormons" right now, I just put it on pause after reading your post.
What really hit me about your post is when you wrote about her and her husband getting together and sharing the word together. It really made me think of Matthew 18:19-20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. That really hit me.

The part I'm watching right now in the video she just got a call from her son telling her it's over he's done with the Mormons apparently he was on his two-year mission trip and they're not allowed to call home during that time so she knew something was up when she answered the phone.

Yeah I'm just having myself a ball studying this stuff and. But I'm afraid I will have to put unveiling grace on my wish for list for now. I already have the book Theo recommended James White's book, "Letters to a Mormon Elder. Let's see here Christmas is coming up, this could happen.
Well, ask your Santa to get you Lynn's book. :) I asked mine!

Missionaries are only allowed 2 phone calls a year--christmas and Mother's Day. Dad's don't warrant a call, I guess. Only allowed one email a week to and from family. Unkind, huh? For young kids away from home for the first time, this restriction must really be hard.

That is a good point, about Jesus being in their midst. They only wanted to know the truth, and God honored their prayer by showing it to them in His Holy Word. Once they started reading, they could hardly stop. They had a great hunger for it. That is a pattern I have noticed with many folks coming out of cults into Christianity--a great hunger for His word. They got only misused bits and pieces before...but then they stop resisting the HS and He opens their minds to receive the truth.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Some books I recommend include Nauvoo Polygamy, by George D. Smith; Blood of the Prophets, by Will Bagley; In Sacred Loneliness, by Todd Compton.

This website is a goldmine of information, run by co-founder Sandra Tanner, who is a sweet and very knowledgeable Christian woman and historian.
Yes, Sandra is very nice. I have corresponded with her and she was always very nice to me, in answering my questions. But she is pushing 90, so not sure how much longer she will be around to do so.

Maggie, have you read No Man Knows My History? I have not; just wondering if you had.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Yes, Sandra is very nice. I have corresponded with her and she was always very nice to me, in answering my questions. But she is pushing 90, so not sure how much longer she will be around to do so.

Maggie, have you read No Man Knows My History? I have not; just wondering if you had.
I just visited Utah lighthouse ministry and it looks like they really have a lot of good information. This was on the homepage and I was rather stunned after reading it.

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) [Whole sermon click here.]

— Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Mr. Smith seems to have quite the ego. The very last line I don't agree with it all "when they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." No when they got rid of them the devil didn't go, the devil was just through using Mr. Smith. Then he went on to his next victim.
 
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