[Other]

Dant01

Member
.
Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon
the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means
of him all [other] things were made to exist."

The word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript; viz: the Society's translators took the liberty to pencil it in; which gives
the impression that God's son was His first creation; and thereafter, the Son
created everything else.


NOTE: I heard it from a JW that the Society's translators added "other" because
that's what Col 1:16-17 means to say even though it doesn't say so in writing. In
other words; that portion of the Society's Bible is an interpretation rather than a
translation.

One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of an
experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a
line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of
embellishing the Bible in order to reinforce its line of thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that the word
"other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It comes out
like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the
things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or
lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him
and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made
to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to discover that
Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out that the Society is inconsistent
with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John 1:3 in order to make
it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even
one [other] thing came into existence."

Now; as to tampering with Paul's letters, and forcing them to mean things they
don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just
as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you,
speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are
some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as
they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


BTW: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits brackets around
the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen from the Watchtower
Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures that "other" is
nowhere to be found in the Greek text. Caveat Lector.
_
 

herman

Active member
On that same note I like to ask them "What are these "other" things that Jesus created? Since you guys teach that only Jehovah God created all things including Jesus Christ please explain what are these "other" things? Our Jw friend Ongyo here can't answer.

In Him,
herman
 
On that same note I like to ask them "What are these "other" things that Jesus created? Since you guys teach that only Jehovah God created all things including Jesus Christ please explain what are these "other" things? Our Jw friend Ongyo here can't answer.

In Him,
herman
You've never asked me this question herman.

However, there are no "other" things that Christ created (since the verse doesn't say Christ created anything in the first place).
 

herman

Active member
What are you talking about ongyo? The NWT explicitly says at Colossians 1:16, "by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships of governments or authorities. All (other ) things have been created through him and for him."

This is an exact quote! Not only that but here is what jw.org says.

When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

He even is credited with creating the angels which by the way begs the following question? You teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the arc angel, so how could he have created the angels if he himself is an angel/spirit creature who lived billions a years with Jehovah God before he incarnated as a man?

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
.
Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon
the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means
of him all [other] things were made to exist."

The word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript; viz: the Society's translators took the liberty to pencil it in; which gives
the impression that God's son was His first creation; and thereafter, the Son
created everything else.


NOTE: I heard it from a JW that the Society's translators added "other" because
that's what Col 1:16-17 means to say even though it doesn't say so in writing. In
other words; that portion of the Society's Bible is an interpretation rather than a
translation.

One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of an
experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a
line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of
embellishing the Bible in order to reinforce its line of thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that the word
"other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It comes out
like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the
things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or
lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him
and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made
to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to discover that
Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out that the Society is inconsistent
with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John 1:3 in order to make
it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even
one [other] thing came into existence."

Now; as to tampering with Paul's letters, and forcing them to mean things they
don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just
as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you,
speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are
some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as
they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


BTW: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits brackets around
the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen from the Watchtower
Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures that "other" is
nowhere to be found in the Greek text. Caveat Lector.
You've never asked me this question herman.

However, there are no "other" things that Christ created (since the verse doesn't say Christ created anything in the first place).
Exactly and it has been explained to them over and over and over again.
 

herman

Active member
Explain it again nathan by addressing what I just posted? Jehovah God says at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord am the MAKER OF ALL THINGS, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

Since this is true, explain to all of us here what were the "OTHER" things that Jesus created that Jehovah God did not create all alone and by Himself? Did Jehovah God need help from Jesus in creating the angels? I know you won't answer but will come up with another "lame" excuse.

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
.
Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon
the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means
of him all [other] things were made to exist."

The word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript; viz: the Society's translators took the liberty to pencil it in; which gives
the impression that God's son was His first creation; and thereafter, the Son
created everything else.


NOTE: I heard it from a JW that the Society's translators added "other" because
that's what Col 1:16-17 means to say even though it doesn't say so in writing. In
other words; that portion of the Society's Bible is an interpretation rather than a
translation.

One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of an
experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a
line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of
embellishing the Bible in order to reinforce its line of thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that the word
"other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in the Greek
manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It comes out
like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the
things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or
lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him
and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made
to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to discover that
Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out that the Society is inconsistent
with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John 1:3 in order to make
it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even
one [other] thing came into existence."

Now; as to tampering with Paul's letters, and forcing them to mean things they
don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just
as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you,
speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are
some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as
they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


BTW: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits brackets around
the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen from the Watchtower
Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures that "other" is
nowhere to be found in the Greek text. Caveat Lector.
_
How many times does it have to be proven to you all that Jesus creates nothing and that only the Father creates everything at all the scriptures you list? Take John 1 for instance and the him who creates at vs 4 can not be Jesus because the life in the him is Jesus, meaning,Jesus can not also be the him and thus the him you all claim creates has to be the Father.
 

Nathan P

Member
Explain it again nathan by addressing what I just posted? Jehovah God says at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord am the MAKER OF ALL THINGS, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

Since this is true, explain to all of us here what were the "OTHER" things that Jesus created that Jehovah God did not create all alone and by Himself? Did Jehovah God need help from Jesus in creating the angels? I know you won't answer but will come up with another "lame" excuse.

In Him,
herman
How many times do you have to be told the Son created nothing? There is no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh and thus there was no Son around during the time of creation.
 
What are you talking about ongyo? The NWT explicitly says at Colossians 1:16, "by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships of governments or authorities. All (other ) things have been created through him and for him."

This is an exact quote!
None of this says Jesus created anything.

Once again, you think "by means of him all things were created" and "all things have been created through him" means "he created all things" (when it doesn't).

Again, at Colossians 1:16, the passive verb EKTISQH is used in reference to what someone else did EN AUTWi. This could not grammatically be construed as an instance where it is said that Christ created all things. The same is true of EKTISTAI in vs 17, where we also find DI' AUTOU, which, together with the passive verbs, clearly involves the idea of agency, namely, Christ as the medium or instrument through which someone else(, ie, God) created.
Not only that but here is what jw.org says.

When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.
He even is credited with creating the angels
Again, nothing there says that Jesus created anything.

The comment "God...used him to make everything else" is the same thing stated at Hebrews 1:1, 2:

His Son is the one through whom God made the universe. (NOG)

Simply put: God made the ages through His son.

which by the way begs the following question? You teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the arc angel, so how could he have created the angels if he himself is an angel/spirit creature who lived billions a years with Jehovah God before he incarnated as a man?

In Him,
herman
I don't understand this question when even within Orthodoxy, most (if not all) believe Jesus is the "angel of the Lord"?

(But again, Jesus isn't said to have "created the angels".)
 

herman

Active member
Like I said, I knew you would come up with a "lame" excuse. First of all I quoted your own sources that say Jesus who you teach is Michael the arc angel created the other angels.

Secondly, at Colossians 1:16 tell me who is the "Him" in the verse? "For by Him all (other) things were created. (NWT) Thirdly, the birth of Jesus was between 6-4BC. His resurrection was between 27-29 AD. And the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians in Rome at about 62CE.

So why is the Apostle Paul writing to the Colossian believers and telling them "AT LEAST" fifty years after the resurrection that Jesus created all things, never mind any "Other" things.

Also, at John 1:1-3 the Son preexisted before the Genesis 1:1 creation because John 1:3 says, "And apart from Him (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Then at John 1:14 the Son incarnated or became flesh. I know, here comes another non answer/excuse from you because your scared to face the facts.

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
Like I said, I knew you would come up with a "lame" excuse. First of all I quoted your own sources that say Jesus who you teach is Michael the arc angel created the other angels.

Secondly, at Colossians 1:16 tell me who is the "Him" in the verse? "For by Him all (other) things were created. (NWT) Thirdly, the birth of Jesus was between 6-4BC. His resurrection was between 27-29 AD. And the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians in Rome at about 62CE.

So why is the Apostle Paul writing to the Colossian believers and telling them "AT LEAST" fifty years after the resurrection that Jesus created all things, never mind any "Other" things.

Also, at John 1:1-3 the Son preexisted before the Genesis 1:1 creation because John 1:3 says, "And apart from Him (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Then at John 1:14 the Son incarnated or became flesh. I know, here comes another non answer/excuse from you because your scared to face the facts.

In Him,
herman
Like you have been told and you ignore there is no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh and thus there was no Son of God during creation because the Son of God has only existed for the last 2,000 or so years.
 

Nathan P

Member
Like I said, I knew you would come up with a "lame" excuse. First of all I quoted your own sources that say Jesus who you teach is Michael the arc angel created the other angels.

Secondly, at Colossians 1:16 tell me who is the "Him" in the verse? "For by Him all (other) things were created. (NWT) Thirdly, the birth of Jesus was between 6-4BC. His resurrection was between 27-29 AD. And the Apostle Paul wrote Colossians in Rome at about 62CE.

So why is the Apostle Paul writing to the Colossian believers and telling them "AT LEAST" fifty years after the resurrection that Jesus created all things, never mind any "Other" things.

Also, at John 1:1-3 the Son preexisted before the Genesis 1:1 creation because John 1:3 says, "And apart from Him (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Then at John 1:14 the Son incarnated or became flesh. I know, here comes another non answer/excuse from you because your scared to face the facts.

In Him,
herman
The by him has to be the Father because the subject from vs 12 -14 is the Father and at vs 15 it says he is an image of the invisible God or he is an image of the subject and not the subject. Also look up the word "of" and the subject is always to the right of the word "of" and since the Father is to the right of the word "of" the subject is the Father and again the for by him, through him and for him has to be referring to the Father.
 

herman

Active member
Here it is right here in your own writings.

When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

Why is Jesus called God’s Son?​

God does not have a literal wife with whom he fathered children. He is the Creator of all life. Humans were created with the capacity to imitate God’s qualities. That is why the first human that God created, Adam, is called a “son of God.” Similarly, Jesus is called “the Son of God” because he was created with qualities like those of his Father.—Read Luke 3:38; John 1:14, 49.

When was Jesus created?​

God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

Before he was born in Bethlehem, Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven. When the time came, God transferred Jesus’ life from heaven to Mary’s womb so that he could be born as a human.—Read Luke 1:30-32; John 6:38; 8:23.

Why did God have Jesus born on earth as a human? What special role did Jesus fulfill? You can find the answers to those questions in the Bible, and they will greatly enhance your understanding and appreciation of what God and Jesus have done for you.

You said there was no Son of God until the Word became flesh. It also states Jesus Is "The Son of God." before He incarnated in Mary's womb. You don't even know what your own other "clueless" Jw's teach. Your own words contradict what the society teaches. It's no wonder your always mixed up.

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
Here it is right here in your own writings.

When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

Why is Jesus called God’s Son?​

God does not have a literal wife with whom he fathered children. He is the Creator of all life. Humans were created with the capacity to imitate God’s qualities. That is why the first human that God created, Adam, is called a “son of God.” Similarly, Jesus is called “the Son of God” because he was created with qualities like those of his Father.—Read Luke 3:38; John 1:14, 49.

When was Jesus created?​

God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

Before he was born in Bethlehem, Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven. When the time came, God transferred Jesus’ life from heaven to Mary’s womb so that he could be born as a human.—Read Luke 1:30-32; John 6:38; 8:23.

Why did God have Jesus born on earth as a human? What special role did Jesus fulfill? You can find the answers to those questions in the Bible, and they will greatly enhance your understanding and appreciation of what God and Jesus have done for you.

You said there was no Son of God until the Word became flesh. It also states Jesus Is "The Son of God." before He incarnated in Mary's womb. You don't even know what your own other "clueless" Jw's teach. Your own words contradict what the society teaches. It's no wonder your always mixed up.

In Him,
herman
Then clearly document there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and do not use scriptures where Jesus was human and he had to refer to himself in the present tense when he said you sent me? I mean I want to see those 3 words (Son of God" and where they are used before the Word became flesh?
 

herman

Active member
The by him has to be the Father because the subject from vs 12 -14 is the Father and at vs 15 it says he is an image of the invisible God or he is an image of the subject and not the subject. Also look up the word "of" and the subject is always to the right of the word "of" and since the Father is to the right of the word "of" the subject is the Father and again the for by him, through him and for him has to be referring to the Father.
You got trapped by your own words nathan. It's impossible for the "Him" at Colossians 1:15 to be the Father. Obviously you don't know why? Since Jehovah God said at Isaiah 44:24 that He created all things by Himself and all Alone, what are the "other" things did He create then? Also, the "Him" is used by Paul at vs17 which is Jesus. The "He" at vs18 refers to Jesus as being head of the Church. And in the same vs18, "so that "He" "Himself/Jesus" might come to have first place in everything."

And the nail in your coffin is at Colossians 1:22, "yet He has now reconciled you IN HIS FLESHY BODY through death," The Father does not have a fleshy body, the Son does. Go ahead, explain this away?

In Him,
herman
 

herman

Active member
None of this says Jesus created anything.

Once again, you think "by means of him all things were created" and "all things have been created through him" means "he created all things" (when it doesn't).

Again, at Colossians 1:16, the passive verb EKTISQH is used in reference to what someone else did EN AUTWi. This could not grammatically be construed as an instance where it is said that Christ created all things. The same is true of EKTISTAI in vs 17, where we also find DI' AUTOU, which, together with the passive verbs, clearly involves the idea of agency, namely, Christ as the medium or instrument through which someone else(, ie, God) created.

Again, nothing there says that Jesus created anything.

The comment "God...used him to make everything else" is the same thing stated at Hebrews 1:1, 2:



Simply put: God made the ages through His son.


I don't understand this question when even within Orthodoxy, most (if not all) believe Jesus is the "angel of the Lord"?

(But again, Jesus isn't said to have "created the angels".)
Excuse me Ongyo, if what you said here is true, "This could not grammatically be construed as an instance where it is said that Christ created all things." then why would you have to add the word "other" in the verse, grammatically speaking of course?

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
You got trapped by your own words nathan. It's impossible for the "Him" at Colossians 1:15 to be the Father. Obviously you don't know why? Since Jehovah God said at Isaiah 44:24 that He created all things by Himself and all Alone, what are the "other" things did He create then? Also, the "Him" is used by Paul at vs17 which is Jesus. The "He" at vs18 refers to Jesus as being head of the Church. And in the same vs18, "so that "He" "Himself/Jesus" might come to have first place in everything."

And the nail in your coffin is at Colossians 1:22, "yet He has now reconciled you IN HIS FLESHY BODY through death," The Father does not have a fleshy body, the Son does. Go ahead, explain this away?

In Him,
herman
So the him at vs 17 is Jesus. Like someone said all these hims are thrown at us and we have to figure out which one is which. he fact is the subject is the Father to vs 14 and at vs 15 it says he is an image of the invisible God or he is an image of the subject and that is the Father. Also for a fact the subject is always to the right of the word "of" and never to the left of the word "of. "Look it up and let me see you show where the subject is to the left of the word "of"?
 

herman

Active member
I still don't know what your talking about when you say, "the subject is always to the right of the word "of" and never to the left of the word "of." Give me an example of what you mean? Also, who's the "He" at John 1:2 and at John 1:4 who is the "Him" in these verses? Is it the Father or the Son?

In Him,
herman
 

Nathan P

Member
I still don't know what your talking about when you say, "the subject is always to the right of the word "of" and never to the left of the word "of." Give me an example of what you mean? Also, who's the "He" at John 1:2 and at John 1:4 who is the "Him" in these verses? Is it the Father or the Son?

In Him,
herman
Get a definition of the word "of" from different dictionaries and the subject is always to the right of the word of". It has been explained over and over that at John 1 the him who is the creator has to be the Father, because the life in the him is Jesus and thus the him can not also be Jesus. Show me how the life in the him was Jesus and the him who the life was in was also Jesus?
 
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