Our freedom of will and God's freedom of will

Joe

Active member
You have freedom of will to do as you please based upon the constraints of your ability.

And here is what we have done with our freedom...as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”(Rom 3:10-18)

And here is the details of what we have done..."For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Rom 1:21-32)

We all have earned a spot in hell for the willful choices we have made. Any disagreement?


Something that is not accepted by many is that our God has freedom of will to do as He pleases based upon the constraints of His ability too.

And here is how God has chosen to use His freedom..."and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:7-24)

And here is plan of action to those whom He foreknew to show mercy and compassion..."And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:28-30)

God has mercy and compassion on whomever He wills. None of us deserve it. And not all of us will be given it. Any disagreement?

We all accept we deserve hell outside of God's salvation. But why not accept God chooses to do as He pleases to show mercy and compassion to some of the undeserving and show wrath towards the deserving others?

God bless
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
You have freedom of will to do as you please based upon the constraints of your ability.

And here is what we have done with our freedom...as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”(Rom 3:10-18)

And here is the details of what we have done..."For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Rom 1:21-32)

We all have earned a spot in hell for the willful choices we have made. Any disagreement?


Something that is not accepted by many is that our God has freedom of will to do as He pleases based upon the constraints of His ability too.

And here is how God has chosen to use His freedom..."and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:7-24)

And here is plan of action to those whom He foreknew to show mercy and compassion..."And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:28-30)

God has mercy and compassion on whomever He wills. None of us deserve it. And not all of us will be given it. Any disagreement?

We all accept we deserve hell outside of God's salvation. But why not accept God chooses to do as He pleases to show mercy and compassion to some of the undeserving and show wrath towards the deserving others?

God bless
Calvinism is a license to sin with impunity, and get away with it, I agree.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
We all accept we deserve hell outside of God's salvation. But why not accept God chooses to do as He pleases to show mercy and compassion to some of the undeserving and show wrath towards the deserving others?

God bless

As long as you understand God's mercy is not arbitrary but is consistent with his love and his just nature.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deut. 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Rom. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2Pet. 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Joe

Active member
Calvinism is a license to sin with impunity, and get away with it, I agree.

The Apostle Paul wrote a whole chapter about your complaint in Romans 6. I haven't seen any writings from Calvin that promotes impunity to sin, but then again I've only read his bullet points. If you know of something he wrote please share the quote.

We all have earned a spot in hell for the willful choices we have made. Any disagreement?

God has mercy and compassion on whomever He wills. None of us deserve it. And not all of us will be given it. Any disagreement?

God bless
 

armylngst

Active member
The Apostle Paul wrote a whole chapter about your complaint in Romans 6. I haven't seen any writings from Calvin that promotes impunity to sin, but then again I've only read his bullet points. If you know of something he wrote please share the quote.

We all have earned a spot in hell for the willful choices we have made. Any disagreement?

God has mercy and compassion on whomever He wills. None of us deserve it. And not all of us will be given it. Any disagreement?

God bless
Here is John Calvin himself, some of what he wrote on Ephesians 1:4, from his commentary available at biblegateway.com:

"This leads us to conclude, that holiness, purity, and every excellence that is found among men, are the fruit of election; so that once more Paul expressly puts aside every consideration of merit. If God had foreseen in us anything worthy of election, it would have been stated in language the very opposite of what is here employed, and which plainly means that all our holiness and purity of life flow from the election of God. How comes it then that some men are religious, and live in the fear of God, while others give themselves up without reserve to all manner of wickedness? If Paul may be believed, the only reason is, that the latter retain their natural disposition, and the former have been chosen to holiness. The cause, certainly, is not later than the effect. Election, therefore, does not depend on the righteousness of works, of which Paul here declares that it is the cause.

We learn also from these words, that election gives no occasion to licentiousness, or to the blasphemy of wicked men who say, "Let us live in any manner we please; for, if we have been elected, we cannot perish." Paul tells them plainly, that they have no right to separate holiness of life from the grace of election; for

"whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified." (Romans 8:30.)"
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The Apostle Paul wrote a whole chapter about your complaint in Romans 6. I haven't seen any writings from Calvin that promotes impunity to sin, but then again I've only read his bullet points. If you know of something he wrote please share the quote.

We all have earned a spot in hell for the willful choices we have made. Any disagreement?

God has mercy and compassion on whomever He wills. None of us deserve it. And not all of us will be given it. Any disagreement?

God bless
The gospel of Jesus Christ offers redemption on condition of faith and repentance. Faith alone, without repentance, does not save. And to repent means to stop sinning. There is no salvation without fulfilling those two preconditions.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Calvinism is a license to sin with impunity, and get away with it, I agree.

You have just demonstrated your IGNORANCE of Calvinism, not to mention having demonstrated your complete IGNORANCE of the Bible:

Here is Paul giving the PERFECT "Calvinist" response to you:

Rom. 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Further, Calvinists believe that we have been REBORN and REGENERATED, and have been given a NEW HEART that hates sin, and has no desire to revel in it:

Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The gospel of Jesus Christ offers redemption on condition of faith and repentance.

... of which God gives BOTH faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1) and repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25) to His chosen people.

Faith alone, without repentance, does not save. And to repent means to stop sinning. There is no salvation without fulfilling those two preconditions.

Then you have just admitted that that you are not saved, since you just sinned by bearing false witness against Calvinism.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
... of which God gives BOTH faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1) and repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25) to His chosen people.
Nowhere is God stated to irresistibly causes some men to believe as otherwise they could not believe

and the claim does not make sense in the face of

Heb. 3:7–8 —KJV
Ҧ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:”

Hebrews 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 (KJV 1900)
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

If God was irresistibly causing men to believe they could not harden their hearts against the truth

Nor would there be reason for God to blind men so they could not believe

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Or speak to men in parables so they would not understand

Mark 4:11–12 (KJV 1900)

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Or for the god of this world to do blind

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

or possible for man to believe is not self hardened

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

The best you can claim from your verses is God grants repentance and faith and that is not the same os irresistably infusing those things
 

Joe

Active member
As long as you understand God's mercy is not arbitrary but is consistent with his love and his just nature.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deut. 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Rom. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2Pet. 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Did God give the Law? Yes.

Was man capable of obeying the Law? No.

Does God set requirements for man that we are incapable of achieving and yet hold us responsible for not meeting them? Yes.

Can a blinded man see the brightness of the sun? No.

Can a man given over to a reprobate mind and blinded by Satan look upon Jesus on the cross and know Him as God, Lord, and Savior? No.

Not a one of us sinful creatures can do anything to change the state of our evilness, free ourselves from Satan, and belief that a man who died on a cross thousands of years ago is God, Lord, and his Savior.

What does it take then for a man to have a change of heart about his rejecting God and his love for sin that earned him to be given over to a reprobate mind, be free from Satan, and believe a person who died thousands of years ago as God, Lord, and Savior?

God bless
 

TibiasDad

Active member
This leads us to conclude, that holiness, purity, and every excellence that is found among men, are the fruit of election; so that once more Paul expressly puts aside every consideration of merit. If God had foreseen in us anything worthy of election, it would have been stated in language the very opposite of what is here employed, and which plainly means that all our holiness and purity of life flow from the election of God.

What God sees in us is his own image, and that we are the work of his hands and desire. That is not meritorious on our part for we did not give ourselves his image, nor did we create ourselves with our own hands. If our children go awry, we fight tooth and nail to restore them, not because they deserve it, but because we created them and chose to have them.

Merry Christmas!


Doug
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Did God give the Law? Yes.

Was man capable of obeying the Law? No.

Does God set requirements for man that we are incapable of achieving and yet hold us responsible for not meeting them? Yes.

Can a blinded man see the brightness of the sun? No.

Can a man given over to a reprobate mind and blinded by Satan look upon Jesus on the cross and know Him as God, Lord, and Savior? No.
You will have to prove all men are given over to a reprobate mind and/or blinded by satan

Not a one of us sinful creatures can do anything to change the state of our evilness, free ourselves from Satan, and belief that a man who died on a cross thousands of years ago is God, Lord, and his Savior.

Book Chapter and verse which states man cannot believe on Christ given grace

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be believed

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The scriptures are shown to be sufficient

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

.
Warnings about hardening your heart make no sense if the gospel cannot be believed

Hebrews 3:7 (KJV 1900)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 (KJV 1900)
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

If man cannot understand the gospel why would God blind men so they could not believe

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Or speak to men in parables so they would not understand

Mark 4:11–12 (KJV 1900)
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Why would the god of this word blind anyone

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
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