Paul and Peter, Sicarii-in-arms

Harel13

Active member
I'm sure every Jew who occasionally pops by this site has his favorite "who was the real Jesus?" theory, seeing as we have little faith in the words of the NT. There are also a number of theories about who Paul and the other apostles were. On Shabbat I read an interesting theory I hadn't heard before, by Avraham Korman in his book "Sects and Cults in Judaism". In it he explains that he believes that Paul was very likely really a "punisher" for the Sanhedrin, as Paul himself claims to have been. However, it seems that he was fired for some reason (not really surprising. We can make a whole list of Paul's wonderful character traits as described in the NT). Down on his luck, he met Peter one day. Peter is described in the NT as being able to mystically kill people:

"Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”
“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”
Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."
Korman compared this to Josephus's description of the Sicarii in Wars of the Jews, 2:13:
"When the country was purged of these, there sprang up another sort of robbers in Jerusalem, which were called Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city; this they did chiefly at the festivals, when they mingled themselves among the multitude, and concealed daggers under their garments, with which they stabbed those that were their enemies; and when any fell down dead, the murderers became a part of those that had indignation against them; by which means they appeared persons of such reputation, that they could by no means be discovered."
Korman concluded that Peter was a Sicarius. That was how he was able to "magically" murder people: He stabbed them so quickly that no one realized what had happened.

What this makes him out to have been is nothing but a thug. This particular thug wanted power. He wanted a following. He collected a group of followers and built a perverted ideology based around the teachings of one Jesus ben Pantira, an ex-Pharisee who had been tried and punished by the Sanhedrin over a century prior. Evidently, traces of his teachings could still be found among certain sects (similarly, we find that traces of Second Temple cult ideologies were still preserved for a time by the Karaites and other medieval Jewish sects). Peter, originally called "Shimon", was given the name "Peter Chamor" (פטר חמור) in Jewish tradition, for he was the first to follow the Jesusian ideology, just as the firstborn donkey is to be killed. Peter, the firstborn donkey strangled his Judaism with idolatrous, heretical beliefs.

And so, Paul eventually chanced upon this Peter, and, realizing that joining this thuggish sect might be beneficial to him, joined up with him and assisted him with what may be deemed similar to a spiritual protection racket. It seems that at some point they had a falling-out (if anything in the NT is to be trusted) and Paul went his own way. He directed the spiritual racket at the non-Jews. Decades later, the legends about Jesus ben Pantira, Shaul/Paul and Shimon-Peter-Chamor were mixed and matched by several different authors to form what would become the books of the Avon-gilayon ("text of sin" as the Talmud calls it) and the rest is history.

That is essentially Korman's understanding of the early history of Christianity.

Thoughts?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
according to Dr. Ken Johnson
there are 7 (possibly overlapping) groups or movements within late bc/first century Judaism
with subgroups
the Qumran Essenes were known to carry short swords for personal protection
in the NT narrative there is the time Jesus and disciples mention swords Luke 22

 
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American Gothic

Well-known member

The Greatest Gift​

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is Love." 1 Corinthians

this is one of Lil Paul's (sic) best known, most quoted raps

 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
so Jesus was the leader of or inspiration for a non-Pharisaic Jewish dagger gang
sounds kinda Gangsta yo

based on materials I've reference above, I do think it is Possible
I don't believe Jesus taught violence tho
Why are you addressing me? I haven't said anything about the OP's ideas. I was suggesting you have a conversation with Harel13, since his post is the one you responded to.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
in the NT narrative
Paul a violent man after his conversion? I don't see it
before that who knows
Peter a stealthy deadly assassin?
the guy comes across as a bit of a doofus, running headlong into everything
putting his foot in his mouth, and humorously nicknamed "Rocky"
having the other disciple Simon, called "the Zealot" could have raised eyebrows
Jesus must have known it would

Thoughts?

despite my initial skepticism
I can totally see Yeshu's crew rolling deep and maybe some of them packing
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"I (Benjamin/the tribe) will no longer be a ravenous wolf (Genesis 49) on account of
your ravages, but a worker of the Lord, distributing food to them that work what
is good. One will rise up from my seed in later times, beloved of the Lord, hearing
His voice on the Earth (Acts 9, Galatians 1:12) enlightening with new knowledge
all the Gentiles, bursting in on Israel for salvation with the light of knowledge, and
tearing it away from them like a wolf, and giving it to the synagogue of the Gentiles.
Until the consummation of the ages he will be in the synagogue of the Gentiles, and
among their rulers (influence), as a strain of music in the mouth of all, and he will
be inscribed in the holy books
, both his work and his word, and he will be a chosen
one of God forever, and because of him my father Jacob instructed me saying,
'He will fill up what lacks from your tribe'."

prophecy of the person and work of the Apostle Paul (Benjamite)
- testament of Benjamin
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Paul seems to have gone thru a Theology change -Pharisaism to Qumran Esseneism
there seems to have been a significant amount of time between the road to Damascus
event and the start of his ministry
I'd think he had to learn from someones and somewhere
if he was shown that prophecy, it would have rocked his world

in their literature, the Qumran community discuss their own beliefs
and admit themselves having been brought to Repentance on a number of doctrinal issues
I'm not sure if they were previously Sadducee or Pharisee
they are the only Jewish faction not mentioned in the NT, as I can tell
which might be telling
they seemed to have had the respect of the regular People
according to Historians and Church Fathers
and the Romans maybe allowed them to carry swords (?)
Jesus and disciples IMV might have been keeping the feast days by a different calendar
than the Jewish leadership as well, but I'm not sure

I've often wondered what faction Annas/Caiaphas and that family were from
but have never been given a definitive answer to the question (?)
there is plenty of scroll talk about wicked priests or a certain specific wicked Priest

as I understand it, the Sadducees and Pharisees had previously worked together
to drive out some of the rightful priests (who first went to Alexandria and then up into the eastern deserts areas)
and then they turned on each other, with much bloodshed
until the Romans were asked to come in

having not read his work, I don't know if Rabbi Korman is aware of this History
I know, I keep bringing it up, but to Me it's just a part of Judaism
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
it's interesting to Me that Paul says
Faith is a gift, the Hope it gives you is a gift, and the Love it should bring out in you is also a gift
at least that is how I view it
they are not necessarily produced in You by any attempts at Law keeping
 

101G

Well-known member
it's interesting to Me that Paul says
Faith is a gift, the Hope it gives you is a gift, and the Love it should bring out in you is also a gift
at least that is how I view it
they are not necessarily produced in You by any attempts at Law keeping
Greetings, yes "Faith" is given to everyone from God, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

it's what one do with that FAITH, scripture, 2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;"
2 Peter 1:6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;"
2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity."
2 Peter 1:8 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Peter 1:9 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."
2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

PICJAG, 101G.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Korman concluded that Peter was a Sicarius. That was how he was able to "magically" murder people: He stabbed them so quickly that no one realized what had happened.

Thoughts?
When you make stuff up out of whole cloth, and then draw a conclusion, it's not called "scholarship." It's actually frivolous. Thoughts on a straw man will drift like chaff in the wind.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
theories about who Paul and the other apostles were
I was taught that Saul of Tarsus and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohanan_ben_Zakkai
were possibly fellow students of Gamaliel

so Pharisaic or Christian Jews since are basically following one or the other

Jews have significant influence in the history and music of Hip Hop
this one is obscure and the goyim are said to be the ones with the blades
but it is still Bumpin'
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Christian Jews are simply Christians. They have nothing to do with Judaism.
Hm. Coming from you, that is fascinating judgment and surprising myopathy. They have the lineage you don’t have, and have researched Messiah and rejected the doctrine of man that you have adopted as religion.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Hm. Coming from you, that is fascinating judgment and surprising myopathy. They have the lineage you don’t have, and have researched Messiah and rejected the doctrine of man that you have adopted as religion.
You forget that I converted to Judaism. I spent most of my life as a christian. Not just any christian, either, but a Christian that really got into studying teh Bible, Church history, and theology. So enough of your patronization.
 
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