Paul declares there is only One Gospel !

[UncleAbee]

Hello Anthony. I pulled a few quotes from you. I'd like to hear your answers.

I'm not a Unitarian nor Trinitarian nor Oneness Pentecostal. - What are you then? I belong to the Churches of Christ. I am part of the more liberal group though.

Most of the Christians I came across follow Christianity rather than following Christ alone. - Could you elaborate more?

The original Hebraic roots of scriptures are given a Greco-roman (foreign) culture. We may have only Greek autographs of NT scriptures but the roots are Hebraic in heritage. - The NT was written originally in Greek by people far removed from the original followers of Christ. I think you can say that about the OT but not the NT.

Many times both are interchanged. They are not distinct Persons. One has to get rid of heathen concept of multiple Persons. God doesn't work that way. - Wow. I don't hear many say this. Can you describe the nature of God in your view?

 

[UncleAbee]

Kingdom of God once was within OT Israel based on conditional covenant under Levetical system of priesthood.

The New Covenant is unconditional one in which the people of the covenant would be made spiritual by The King of Kings - Jesus The Christ (Yahusha HaMashyach). This is the spiritual kingdom of God with Christ sitting on the throne of David (Acts Ch 2).

There can't be a spiritual kingdom without the death and resurrection of Christ.

Without historical Israel, one can't understand the NT.

Not sure how that answers any of my questions but thanks for the attempt.

 

[Chalcedon]

I'm not a Unitarian nor Trinitarian nor Oneness Pentecostal.

If you understand scriptures properly to be a Christian is not equivalent to belonging to Christianity which is unscriptural religion.

Most of the Christians I came across follow Christianity rather than following Christ alone.

These 'isms' of Christianity have nothing to do with proper Theology or Christology.

Scriptures never teach multi-personal God. The distinctions between The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit is not personal distinctions but rather God's dealing with His people in soteriology and administration of Assembly/Congregation.

The original Hebraic roots of scriptures are given a Greco-roman (foreign) culture. We may have only Greek autographs of NT scriptures but the roots are Hebraic in heritage.

Christianity in it's Greco-roman culture can't understand the concept of the manifestation of The Son of God in relation to Israel as God's firstborn son in Covenant relationship. They have invented a Second Person of Trinity.

Heb 8:8-10 teaches that in New Covenant believers The Torah/Law is written in minds and hearts - by which we must interpret scriptures in the Spirit of Christ and not in Greco-roman culture that is prevalent in Christianity.

God doesn't work against His own Torah which is Personified in Christ - Who is YHWH manifested in flesh.

YHWH is revealed in OT as dual powers - one concealed by His transcendence self and the other as His Angel/Messenger in visible form from the beginning of creation.

Many times both are interchanged. They are not distinct Persons. One has to get rid of heathen concept of multiple Persons. God doesn't work that way.

The One Who spoke as YHWH as The Father and in subordinate power as His Messenger are one the same. Why? It's because transcendent YHWH has no form, no appearance, no vocality and no approach.

However, the One in Form of YHWH was seen, heard, touched from the beginning.

The One Who took the form of a Servant and likeness of men is YHWH Who was seen, heard, touched in OT. The transcendent YHWH remained as He was.

Now it's The Son Who declared The Father to His people.

1 John 1:1 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Phil 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Isral was a Servant of YHWH as well as firstborn son in Covenant relationship with Him as The Father.

Exod 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So if I have this correct you are saying that the Father is not the Son and vice versa correct ?

And that the Father and the Son are not Persons correct ?

 

[Anthony]

Hello Anthony. I pulled a few quotes from you. I'd like to hear your answers.

I'm not a Unitarian nor Trinitarian nor Oneness Pentecostal. - What are you then? I belong to the Churches of Christ. I am part of the more liberal group though.

Most of the Christians I came across follow Christianity rather than following Christ alone. - Could you elaborate more?

The original Hebraic roots of scriptures are given a Greco-roman (foreign) culture. We may have only Greek autographs of NT scriptures but the roots are Hebraic in heritage. - The NT was written originally in Greek by people far removed from the original followers of Christ. I think you can say that about the OT but not the NT.

Many times both are interchanged. They are not distinct Persons. One has to get rid of heathen concept of multiple Persons. God doesn't work that way. - Wow. I don't hear many say this. Can you describe the nature of God in your view?

I don't go to any church. The present day system of church is institutional and is based on a religion of Christianity which doesn't exist in scriptures. One's theology is based on the denomination one attends. The early churches (or Assemblies) were never institutionalized. Apostles mostly visited synagogues to preach Messiah. These synagogues were managed by Jews who taught Torah to their proselytized brethren (dispersed Israelites). We can see this throughout the book of Acts. There were also home based Assemblies where Apostles visited and appointed elders.

Christianity was unknown. Most of Christianity follow their Church fathers but scriptures only mention about our OT fathers.

Most of Pauline Epistles are misunderstood by Christendom as Paul wrote most of his Epistles to Judaizers about proper understanding of Torah in perspective of Christ. Paul put Christ (faith) prior to obedience to Torah which only works as fruit of salvation. Judaizers put works first and those who later believed in Christ came into the trap of Judaizers to which Paul spoke against. Acts 15, Galatians, Romans address to this fact.

 

[UncleAbee]

I don't go to any church. The present day system of church is institutional and is based on a religion of Christianity which doesn't exist in scriptures. One's theology is based on the denomination one attends. The early churches (or Assemblies) were never institutionalized. Apostles mostly visited synagogues to preach Messiah. These synagogues were managed by Jews who taught Torah to their proselytized brethren (dispersed Israelites). We can see this throughout the book of Acts. There were also home based Assemblies where Apostles visited and appointed elders.

Christianity was unknown. Most of Christianity follow their Church fathers but scriptures only mention about our OT fathers.

Most of Pauline Epistles are misunderstood by Christendom as Paul wrote most of his Epistles to Judaizers about proper understanding of Torah in perspective of Christ. Paul put Christ (faith) prior to obedience to Torah which only works as fruit of salvation. Judaizers put works first and those who later believed in Christ came into the trap of Judaizers to which Paul spoke against. Acts 15, Galatians, Romans address to this fact.

Thanks for the response. It's good to know where you stand. I agree with you that today's church system is highly institutional. I do think (based on the evidence) that the 1st Christians were Jewish-Christians. The Gentiles quickly took over the church and that was it for the Jewish-Christian crowd. I also believe that Paul had no idea about two churches. Gentiles were to be grafted into the Israelite church. Keeping the Israelite traditions was fine for Jews but unnecessary towards salvation. God had changed the rules (animal sacrifices unnecessary, etc). Paul never refers to Christ's followers as Christians. According to Paul we are all in the "church of God." I do believe that Paul thought good works (of Christ) were a both fruits of faith and a necessary component of salvation. Faith is what opens the door but that's not the end of it. Anyway, those are my thoughts on Paul.

 

[Anthony]

So if I have this correct you are saying that the Father is not the Son and vice versa correct ?

And that the Father and the Son are not Persons correct ?

The Father and The Son are not 2 distinct Persons but duality of powers or compounded unity in Monotheism.

The Father and The Son represent covenental relationship between YHWH and Israel (His people). They don't make up 2 distinct Persons as Trinity defines. Trinity disregards Exo 4:22-23; Hos 11:1; Mat 2:15, Rom 8:29 and many more prophetic scriptures.

The Son can't be 2nd Person of Trinity. The Son is the only spiritual Seed of God representing corporate Israel as the firstborn Son of God.

In OT, YHWH is revealed to Israel in duality of Powers - Transcendent and in the realm of creation.

 

[Chalcedon]

The Father and The Son are not 2 distinct Persons but duality of powers or compounded unity in Monotheism.

The Father and The Son represent covenental relationship between YHWH and Israel (His people). They don't make up 2 distinct Persons as Trinity defines. Trinity disregards Exo 4:22-23; Hos 11:1; Mat 2:15, Rom 8:29 and many more prophetic scriptures.

The Son can't be 2nd Person of Trinity. The Son is the only spiritual Seed of God representing corporate Israel as the firstborn Son of God.

In OT, YHWH is revealed to Israel in duality of Powers - Transcendent and in the realm of creation.

The Son tells us in John 17:5 that He was together with the Father before Creation. which lines up perfectly with John 1:1-4, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1:1-10, 1 Corinthians 8:6.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Anthony]

Thanks for the response. It's good to know where you stand. I agree with you that today's church system is highly institutional. I do think (based on the evidence) that the 1st Christians were Jewish-Christians. The Gentiles quickly took over the church and that was it for the Jewish-Christian crowd. I also believe that Paul had no idea about two churches. Gentiles were to be grafted into the Israelite church. Keeping the Israelite traditions was fine for Jews but unnecessary towards salvation. God had changed the rules (animal sacrifices unnecessary, etc). Paul never refers to Christ's followers as Christians. According to Paul we are all in the "church of God." I do believe that Paul thought good works (of Christ) were a both fruits of faith and a necessary component of salvation. Faith is what opens the door but that's not the end of it. Anyway, those are my thoughts on Paul.

Gentiles is unfortunate translation of the Hebrew word 'Guyim' and Greek 'Ethnos'.
The Hebrew word 'Guyim' means either 'Nations' fathered by Abraham (Gen 12, 15, 17) or heathen nations that have nothing to with the covenant with YHWH.

Jesus said He specifically came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You rightly say that if we believe in Messiah we need to be grafted among natural believing branches - that would be Israel of God.

In OT, there was a law for strangers to join to Israel through circumcision and there would be one Torah for both Israelites and strangers.

NT holds similar view since Israel of old lost its ethnic identity, the believers in Messiah would have been strangers to the covenant as Paul tells in Ephesians 2. The Jews kept their ethnic identity having returned back from Babylonian captivity. The believing natural olive branches are The Jews and the wild olive branches are the strangers and particularly the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But anyone who believes in the true Messiah would be accepted as known to God.

In Greek 'Messias' is the transliteration of Hebrew Mashyach and it's translation again in Greek is 'Christos' - John 1:41. The Messiah is Hebrew and not a Greco-roman. What Christianity did was to invent a Christ most suitable for their Greco-roman culture without being obedient to Him as Torah being Personified. The Torah written (not on tablets of stone) in our minds and hearts is Messiah dwelling in us in Ruach/Spirit. Paul says we are the epistle of Christ written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God.

2Cor 3:3 making it obvious that you are a letter of Messiah, served by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living Elohim, not on tablets of stone but on fleshly tablets of the heart.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Toah is spiritual as it changed Levitical Priesthood system to Melekitsedeq Priesthood with Messiah as our High Priest.

The appointed times given to Israel in OT was in reality their appointment with Messiah as each Muad or feast points out to Him.

 

[Anthony]

The Son tells us in John 17:5 that He was together with the Father before Creation. which lines up perfectly with John 1:1-4, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1:1-10, 1 Corinthians 8:6.

hope this helps !!!

John 17:3 and John 17:5 are mostly misused by both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.

The 'world' John mostly refers to the people on whom God would shower His love. Before the world would mean the very purpose for which He created Adam. Adam and Eve are figures of Christ and His Assembly which God was working at culminating to Israel.

John 17 is The Mediator's prayer as representing Israel as The Firstborn Son (Exod 4:22, Mat 2:15, Rom 8:29). That's why He addresses The Father as the only true God.

Without understanding The Law and The Prophets, one can't understand New Testament.

 

[Chalcedon]

John 17:3 and John 17:5 are mostly misused by both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.

The 'world' John mostly refers to the people on whom God would shower His love. Before the world would mean the very purpose for which He created Adam. Adam and Eve are figures of Christ and His Assembly which God was working at culminating to Israel.

John 17 is The Mediator's prayer as representing Israel as The Firstborn Son (Exod 4:22, Mat 2:15, Rom 8:29). That's why He addresses The Father as the only true God.

Without understanding The Law and The Prophets, one can't understand New Testament.

The new interprets the old not vice versa.

Jesus said the OT was about Himself and revealed to His disciples the truth in the OT concerning Him.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

And Paul quotes numerous OT passages and interprets them in the NT as does the Author of Hebrews. Many of them were misunderstood until the NT was written by the Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Anthony]

The new interprets the old not vice versa.

Jesus said the OT was about Himself and revealed to His disciples the truth in the OT concerning Him.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

And Paul quotes numerous OT passages and interprets them in the NT as does the Author of Hebrews. Many of them were misunderstood until the NT was written by the Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

Yes, I don't deny Yahusha HaMashyach/Jesus Christ is YHWH manifested in flesh. If you read my posts I've mentioned this - YHWH in duality of powers.

The problem with Christianity is that it reads NT in Greco-roman culture and applies it to OT. Whereas, it's just the opposite. NT in Greek doesn't mean God has changed the Hebraic heritage. Granted, NT is further revelation of OT but it doesn't mean God adopting a heathen culture for NT believers.

The ones He chose for writing NT were from Jewish background.

 

[Chalcedon]

Yes, I don't deny Yahusha HaMashyach/Jesus Christ is YHWH manifested in flesh. If you read my posts I've mentioned this - YHWH in duality of powers.

The problem with Christianity is that it reads NT in Greco-roman culture and applies it to OT. Whereas, it's just the opposite. NT in Greek doesn't mean God has changed the Hebraic heritage. Granted, NT is further revelation of OT but it doesn't mean God adopting a heathen culture for NT believers.

The ones He chose for writing NT were from Jewish background.

agreed

 

[Yahchristian]

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior

And there is One Gospel

I totally agree!

However, Dispensational Pre-trib Rapture teachers say "the gospel" in the first chapter of Mark is NOT the same as "the gospel" in the last chapter of Mark.

Mark 1:15... And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 16:15... And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What do you believe?

 

[Chalcedon]

I totally agree!

However, Dispensational Pre-trib Rapture teachers say "the gospel" in the first chapter of Mark is NOT the same as "the gospel" in the last chapter of Mark.

Mark 1:15... And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 16:15... And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What do you believe?

One Gospel just like One God, One Lord, One Faith etc..............

 

[UncleAbee]

I totally agree!

However, Dispensational Pre-trib Rapture teachers say "the gospel" in the first chapter of Mark is NOT the same as "the gospel" in the last chapter of Mark.

Mark 1:15... And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 16:15... And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What do you believe?

Mark 1:15 - The "gospel message" is of a coming kingdom of God.

Mark 16:15 - The "gospel message" is of Christ's death and resurrection.

Two different gospels. Some say the coming kingdom in Mark 1:15 is the church on the day of Pentecost. The question to ask yourself though is why is it necessary to repent (Mark 1:15) before the kingdom comes? Certainly people repented after the day of Pentecost and became Christians. Repentance in Mark 1:15 was not a changing of what you believe. It was a change in moral character and behavior. Mark 1:15 is not describing the coming church on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Anthony]

Mark 1:15 - The "gospel message" is of a coming kingdom of God.

Mark 16:15 - The "gospel message" is of Christ's death and resurrection.

Two different gospels. Some say the coming kingdom in Mark 1:15 is the church on the day of Pentecost. The question to ask yourself though is why is it necessary to repent (Mark 1:15) before the kingdom comes? Certainly people repented after the day of Pentecost and became Christians. Repentance in Mark 1:15 was not a changing of what you believe. It was a change in moral character and behavior. Mark 1:15 is not describing the coming church on the day of Pentecost.

There aren't two gospel messages but only one.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom where Christ is sitting on the throne of David in Acts 2.

In OT, Israel was a physical Kingdom in the middle East.

The promises were still for Israel as a spiritual nation rather than a political nation.

Paul in Rom 11 says that the believing nations as wild olive branches are grafted among natural olive branches. So we can't be having a separate kingdom for Christians. There is nothing like a religion called Christianity in the scriptures. It's the same Israel transitioning from flesh to spirit in Yahusha HaMashyach (Jesus The Christ).

 

[UncleAbee]

There aren't two gospel messages but only one.

Mark ch 1 appears to be Christ preaching about a coming kingdom. Mark ch 16's gospel message is about Christ's death and resurrection. Again, why the need to repent before it comes? Didn't people repent after the day of Pentecost (Lydia, Jailor, Paul, etc)? Aren't people still repenting today? Even John the Baptist said this in Matt 3:2. You couldn't enter the coming kingdom unless you had repented based on John the Baptist.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom where Christ is sitting on the throne of David in Acts 2.

I don't see any definition of what the kingdom is in Acts 2.

In OT, Israel was a physical Kingdom in the middle East.

... and it still is.

The promises were still for Israel as a spiritual nation rather than a political nation.

Paul in Rom 11 says that the believing nations as wild olive branches are grafted among natural olive branches. So we can't be having a separate kingdom for Christians. There is nothing like a religion called Christianity in the scriptures. It's the same Israel transitioning from flesh to spirit in Yahusha HaMashyach (Jesus The Christ).

I actually agree with this. Paul never called his followers Christians. It seems his idea was that the followers of Christ were being grafted into the church started in the OT making it all one church (body). The majority of 1st century Jews rejected Christ as savior though. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling us Christians but I don't think Paul had any idea of starting a new church.

 

[Yahchristian]

Mark 1:15 - The "gospel message" is of a coming kingdom of God.

Mark 16:15 - The "gospel message" is of Christ's death and resurrection.

Two different gospels. Some say the coming kingdom in Mark 1:15 is the church on the day of Pentecost. The question to ask yourself though is why is it necessary to repent (Mark 1:15) before the kingdom comes? Certainly people repented after the day of Pentecost and became Christians. Repentance in Mark 1:15 was not a changing of what you believe. It was a change in moral character and behavior. Mark 1:15 is not describing the coming church on the day of Pentecost.

Do you agree with the Dispensational Pre-trib Rature view?

They are the only ones that normally think there are two gospels.

 

[UncleAbee]

Do you agree with the Dispensational Pre-trib Rature view?

They are the only ones that normally think there are two gospels.

I need to look that up! I am not sure what that is. What it appears to me is that the gospel started off being about a coming Kingdom and migrated over time to being about Jesus.

 

[Yahchristian]

I need to look that up! I am not sure what that is. What it appears to me is that the gospel started off being about a coming Kingdom and migrated over time to being about Jesus.

There is only ONE gospel from before the foundation of the world...

Ephesians 1:4... According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Here is the first reference of it in the Bible...

Genesis 3:15... And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Which Dispensational Gospel do you believe Genesis 3:15 is referring to?
1) about a coming Kingdom
2) about Jesus