Perfection in this world.

[Mysterium Fidei]

Have you actually ever read Vatican I?

Try it sometime.

Have you read it? This is also from Vatican I: “Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.”

This states that what the Church proposes in Her ordinary and universal magisterium, not just extraordinary teachings, must be believed with "divine and Catholic faith."

Vatican I struck a middle ground between Gallicanism and Ultramontanism.

You seem to be ignorant of this fact.

Yes, I am ignorant. Please do elaborate, and maybe actually try citing something from Vatican I to back up your claim. That would be a first!

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

I can't stand Joe Biden any more than you can. The man nauseates me. However, I do not allow my distain for the man to cause me to make false accusations against him. Biden to date has had no accusations of child abuse leveled against him.

How would you like it if someone labeled you a pedophile just because they disagree with you or do not like you?

Aside from his many public molestations of children, in which he is seen creepily groping, fondling and sniffing them, there is the diary of his daughter and the matter of their "inappropriate" showers they took together.

 

[RayneBeau]

If RCs can demand the removal of popes (and that hasn't worked in the past, has it?) why can they not demand that all those sexually immoral priests be removed?

Doesn't the RCC teach and essentially believe that their priests represent the people before God and they act as mediators between God and the people? Isn't that still their essential teaching? They make-believe that God Himself appointed these priest 'mediators' because, in their sinful state, men could not come before Him or have fellowship with Him without the RCC's priests' mediation in offering sacrifices.
Perhaps this is one of the RCC's "infallible" teachings that the RCC priests are above being "removed." However, that whole priesthood which God established in the OT was a foreshadowing of that which would one day be fulfilled in our Great High Priest the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, with the accomplishment of his redemption, the office of priesthood and the way it functioned on the human level, reached fulfillment, and that position went bye-bye. So why can't guilty pedophile Roman Catholic priests be completely ousted from the RCC (amethematized), or locked up for their crimes?

 

[bluedog1us]

One thing is because the "infallible" rcc declared that once a priest, always a priest. If they would removed one from the priesthood, it would prove that the "infallible" rcc is really NOT infallible. The rcc mushrooms may just start thinking then. And we can't have that, can we?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Have you read it? This is also from Vatican I: “Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.”

This states that what the Church proposes in Her ordinary and universal magisterium, not just extraordinary teachings, must be believed with "divine and Catholic faith."


Yes, I am ignorant. Please do elaborate, and maybe actually try citing something from Vatican I to back up your claim. That would be a first!

Well, it is like I said: the pope is infallible--but only under limited and very narrow conditions.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Well, it is like I said: the pope is infallible--but only under limited and very narrow conditions.

OK, so nothing. No citations to back up anything you say, as usual.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

OK, so nothing. No citations to back up anything you say, as usual.

Read Vatican I. Vatican I is quite clear with the conditions for when the pope is infallible. People may number things differently but there are the basic conditions:

1) The pope must be speaking to the whole Church

2) He must be speaking as pope, not theologian or individual.

3) He must intend to bind the whole Church to the teaching--which means he must desire to bind the Christian conscience

4) It must involve Faith and or morals

Now, the only thing that I think even remotely qualifies under Pope Francis as fulfilling these conditions (arguably) is his change of Church teaching regarding the death penalty. I will grant to you that this is problematic. I cannot reconcile Pope Francis's actions with regard to the death penalty with history, Tradition or the Scriptures. Someone smarter than I will have to attempt a defense of that. I know of no way to defend what Pope Francis did.

 

[balshan]

I'm not sure its ever been tried in the past. Although they are great at condemning popes after they've died....Honorius. But while they are alive i guess they can say or believe whatever they want and the plebes just have to live with it.

Really, it would seem that is not the case. I mean having 3 popes at one time was a case of trying to remove a pope. There was the assassination attempt on one pope. I don't know Roman emperors seemed to be able to force them to resign:

Liberus

For this Constantius exiled him to Beroea, in Greece, and an Arian cleric became Pope Felix II.

pontian

In 235 he was sent to the mines of Sardinia, where he was no doubt poorly treated. Separated from his flock, and realizing he was unlikely to survive the ordeal, Pontian turned over the responsibility of leading all Christians to St. Anterus on September 28, 235. This made him the first pope in history to abdicate. H

Benedict ix

While he was gone, the Romans elected Pope Sylvester III; but Benedict's brothers drove him out a few short months later, and Benedict returned to take up the office again.

from popes who resigned.

 

[balshan]

Doesn't the RCC teach and essentially believe that their priests represent the people before God and they act as mediators between God and the people? Isn't that still their essential teaching? They make-believe that God Himself appointed these priest 'mediators' because, in their sinful state, men could not come before Him or have fellowship with Him without the RCC's priests' mediation in offering sacrifices.
Perhaps this is one of the RCC's "infallible" teachings that the RCC priests are above being "removed." However, that whole priesthood which God established in the OT was a foreshadowing of that which would one day be fulfilled in our Great High Priest the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, with the accomplishment of his redemption, the office of priesthood and the way it functioned on the human level, reached fulfillment, and that position went bye-bye. So why can't guilty pedophile Roman Catholic priests be completely ousted from the RCC (amethematized), or locked up for their crimes?

Yep.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Read Vatican I. Vatican I is quite clear with the conditions for when the pope is infallible. People may number things differently but there are the basic conditions:

1) The pope must be speaking to the whole Church

2) He must be speaking as pope, not theologian or individual.

3) He must intend to bind the whole Church to the teaching--which means he must desire to bind the Christian conscience

4) It must involve Faith and or morals

Now, the only thing that I think even remotely qualifies under Pope Francis as fulfilling these conditions (arguably) is his change of Church teaching regarding the death penalty. I will grant to you that this is problematic. I cannot reconcile Pope Francis's actions with regard to the death penalty with history, Tradition or the Scriptures. Someone smarter than I will have to attempt a defense of that. I know of no way to defend what Pope Francis did.

The infallibility of the Church is not limited to the rare extraordinary papal pronouncements such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. As Vatican I taught and as I cited the universal and ordinary magisterium must be believed with "divine and Catholic faith."

The See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error.

The See of Peter was given a gift of truth and never failing faith.

The Catholic Church is prevented from ever teaching false doctrine.

 

[A new day]

The See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error.

The Catholic Church is prevented from ever teaching false doctrine.

No human can ever be unblemished by sin or error. Sin stains and mars everything it comes into contact with. No human has ever been infallible. Only God is infallible. And the rcc has led many people into error. The rcc is full of false teachings, doctrines, and errors.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

No human can ever be unblemished by sin or error. Sin stains and mars everything it comes into contact with. No human has ever been infallible. Only God is infallible. And the rcc has led many people into error. The rcc is full of false teachings, doctrines, and errors.

Are you purposely misrepresenting the doctrine of papal infallibility or are you just ignorant of it? If you are ignorant of it, maybe you should not be commenting on a Catholic forum in which you don't know anything about the subject.

The pope is not immaculate or impeccable and is not without sin. No one has ever claimed this to be the case.

Papal infallibility means he is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals.

 

[bluedog1us]

Are you purposely misrepresenting the doctrine of papal infallibility or are you just ignorant of it? If you are ignorant of it, maybe you should not be commenting on a Catholic forum in which you don't know anything about the subject.

The pope is not immaculate or impeccable and is not without sin. No one has ever claimed this to be the case.

Papal infallibility means he is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals.

So the rcc is not infallible?

 

[A new day]

the doctrine of papal infallibility

I totally reject this and all other rc teachings, doctrines and dogmas.

Papal infallibility means he is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy

This is totally false. There is no perfection in this life. Peter was not perfect. James admitted he was not perfect, and Paul preached against perfectionism in this life. Only God is perfect.

 

[mica]

Are you purposely misrepresenting the doctrine of papal infallibility or are you just ignorant of it? If you are ignorant of it, maybe you should not be commenting on a Catholic forum in which you don't know anything about the subject.

The pope is not immaculate or impeccable and is not without sin. No one has ever claimed this to be the case.

Papal infallibility means he is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals.

Papal infallibility means he is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals.

that any catholic believes that any human is infallible just screams that they know nothing about the HS or how He works in lives.
He does not guide anyone into error or heresy as the rcc does, nor to a false 'church' or to 'faith' in men.
It is not the Holy Spirit guiding the rcc or teaching thru it.

 

[RiJoRi]

... Papal infallibility means he [the pope] is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals.

Then however do you explain your attitude towards Vatican II? You seem to claim the pope and his counselors blew it big time regarding the Catholic faith. You provide quotes to RPO to show that this is so. Yet you also say the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith."

You decry JB's and the New Order's stance on abortion and the LG-whatever's claims. Yet you also say the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the morals."

Please, please, set aside the fact that a "Protestant heretic" is saying this, and consider how the RCC could have gotten into its current state if – as the RCC teaches – the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals." There is a dissonance here that you must resolve for yourself.

--Rich

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Have you actually ever read Vatican I?

Try it sometime. Vatican I struck a middle ground between Gallicanism and Ultramontanism.

You seem to be ignorant of this fact.

Gallicanism is a heresy. It subverts papal primacy to the authority of a general council and the bishops.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Gallicanism is a heresy. It subverts papal primacy to the authority of a general council and the bishops.

So is ultramontanism becasue it exaggerates the papacy at the expense of the episcopacy. Both extremes are bad, sir.

A pope that is too powerful--and the bishops become mere delegates of the pope and teach in his name--sort of like a priest--just with more jurisdiction. A pope that is too weak cannot serve as the visible center of union within the Church--because he is nothing but a figurehead.

 

[balshan]

Then however do you explain your attitude towards Vatican II? You seem to claim the pope and his counselors blew it big time regarding the Catholic faith. You provide quotes to RPO to show that this is so. Yet you also say the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith."

You decry JB's and the New Order's stance on abortion and the LG-whatever's claims. Yet you also say the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the morals."

Please, please, set aside the fact that a "Protestant heretic" is saying this, and consider how the RCC could have gotten into its current state if – as the RCC teaches – the pope "is protected by the Holy Ghost from ever teaching error or heresy to the universal Church in matters regarding the Faith or morals." There is a dissonance here that you must resolve for yourself.

--Rich

Oh this split that RCs do not seem to see, shows that their claims of the church prevailing against the gates of hell are false, that the HS is behind who is chosen as pope is false, that they are united is false, and apparently one can be without a pope for decades and all is well. This split also reveals the changes in the RC teachings.

 

[Blessings8]

What gives Catholics the idea that people can attain perfection in this world, with this earthly body?

I love this question. Only through Jesus.