Perseverance of The Saints

Redeemed

Active member
If you think you can lose your salvation, that you're not eternally secure, that the saints don't persevere you are being deceived. The bad news about being deceived is you don't know you're being deceived because your deceived. And in trying to argue against the truth of enternal security you will do so from your emotions and not your intellect.

If you used your intellect you would understand God's amazing love. The word of God clearly tells us that God poured his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit Romans 5:5. If you're a follower of Jesus you can't damn that stream up, his grace is greater. God proved his love conclusively and irrefutably by sending his son to the cross as an atoning sacrifice for our sins Romans 5:8, first John 4:9-10.

I think one of the most amazing things about God's love is that it is extended to us when we do not deserve it and continues steadfast and strong even when we fall short. In other words his love is unconditional.

He made it real easy for us to walk in his love, take a real good look at 1 John 1:5-10:

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Jesus said that he was the way and the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father except through him. So if you have the truth "Jesus" you'll have this little thing called Holy Spirit conviction. And that Holy Spirit conviction will make you want to confess your sins and get cleansed from all unrighteousness.

That certainly is different from our love, we have a tendency to show more love to people who obviously love us and behave the way we would like them to behave and less love to ones who do not.

There is not one good thing in any of us that merits God's love. He does not love us because we are so lovable or because we can somehow make ourselves worthy of his love. I think to really drive this home there is a great biblical illustration of God's unconditional love in his relationship with the nation of Israel you know those people God chose.

I love what it says in Deuteronomy 7:7-8 the Lord did not set his love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people's, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which he swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh the king of Egypt.

Can you see what God's implying there in his word? There is no human reason for his love for Israel. They were a rebellious, stiff-necked people. But he love them simply because he loved them, that's how it is with us he loves us because he loves us. Nothing we ever did made him love us, so there's nothing we could ever do to make him stop loving us. He love he loves us when we sin just as much is when we don't. He never stops loving us.

One last point, think of the marriage supper of the Lamb where Jesus is the bridegroom and we are the bride. Do you have that picture in your head, good.

Now think of the picture of Israel's unfaithfulness in her relationship with God as shown to us in Hosea chapter 2. There we see Hosea's love for his unfaithful wife, Gomer. Did God tell him to dump her because she was unfaithful?

I will betroth you to me for ever; yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in steadfast love, and in mercy. I will even betroth you to me in stability and in faithfulness, and you shall know "recognize, be acquainted with, appreciate, give heed to and cherish" the Lord Hosea 2:19 – 20

Trust me if you belong to him he will make sure you're you make it all the way home. He is more than able to make you stand, you're not going to fall if you're his. The truth is it's no longer a sin issue since sin has been dealt with and taken out of the way of the cross. It's an obedience issue now, we are to hear and obey.

He's a good good father and if you don't obey him and you want to do life your way you might want to check out the parable of the prodigal son. When you get sick of feeding pigs just go back to him he will run out to meet you. It will be party time!

Then we meet the other son, let's just say he represents people that think you can lose your salvation. Now this older son was in the field, and as he drew near the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. The servant told him that his father had killed the fatted calf because his brother had come home. The older brother was angry: what? My no good useless brother who ran off with that inheritance and left me back here to do all the work is back? And were having a party?

The older brother would not go in, and the father noticed that he was missing. So the father came out and pleaded with him, but the older brother said, (emotionally) "look, these many years I have served you, and I have never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours comes, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him!"

Oh Oh...and the really good part

The father said to the sun, "son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive, he was lost, and is found."

The father never stopped loving him or gave up on him.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
CONTEXT:

Heb. 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.
That's one work-around. There are others.
 

Redeemed

Active member
SO explain Heb 6:4-6
Sure Bob, Thanks for the slow pitch. So we can go with the long or the short of it. Right now I'll go with the short and I'll be back with the long.
Some say that this is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.
 

Redeemed

Active member
Sure Bob, Thanks for the slow pitch. So we can go with the long or the short of it. Right now I'll go with the short and I'll be back with the long.
Some say that this is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.
No true believer ever loses his salvation. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God’s grace that preserves us.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
No true believer ever loses his salvation. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God’s grace that preserves us.
Having fallen away myself, I CAN attest to the fact that God DOES send wake-up calls - sometime pretty brutal ones - to get our attention.
 

civic

Active member
Having fallen away myself, I CAN attest to the fact that God DOES send wake-up calls - sometime pretty brutal ones - to get our attention.
well if you really had fallen away like those in Heb 6 then you would not of returned for it would be impossible according to that passage. most likely you were saved all along even though you did not feel or act saved. Believers are not saved one day, lost the next then saved again over and over again and again.
 

Redeemed

Active member
SO explain Heb 6:4-6
Here is the long of it Bob

Hebrews 6:4–6 (ESV): 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

This passage seems to strongly suggests that believers can and do fall away, totally and finally. But that's just not the case. First I would like to look at why is this warning here. One of the big controversies the early church had to deal with were the Judaizers. Those old Judaizers were a very destructive influence worse than banjo pickers. They wanted to profess Christ and at the same time insist on enforcing Old Testament ceremonies like circumcision. I believe that it was this heresy that the author of Hebrews was concerned with as it was in other parts of the New Testament especially the book of Galatians.

Another thing to think about Bob what's the exact nature of these people were being warned against falling away. Are the true believers or the tares growing among the wheat? Iets take a look at the list that describes them.

First you have people who were once enlightened. So Bob do you think that could be someone who at first all this Jesus stuff sounds good then they change their minds?

Next is they tasted of the heavenly gifts. Kinda sounds like communion and the Bible definitely warns us that we can do that and not be right with God.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit. That's the easiest one to fake I'm not even gonna go there but I've seen plenty of it. I could tell you some real funny stories about it though.

Tasted the good word of God. Even the demons can do that.

Cannot be renewed again to repentance. While we definitely could camp here for a while but let's just take a look at the apostle Peter and that night they arrest Jesus and he denied him three times. I'm thinking he did get renewed again until repentance. Jesus came back from the dead and straight up asked him do you love me. How many times three times. What did Jesus tell the apostles when they asked him how many times they should forgive their brother. Three times they asked Him? What did Jesus tell them Bob? I don't think it was "sorry they can't be renewed again until repentance". No it was 70×70 and that would be an unlimited number of times.

You see Hebrews could be describing people who have made a false profession of faith. All of these attributes may be possessed by non-believers. The tares who come to church every week hear the Word of God taught and preached and thus are “enlightened.” They participate in all of the means of grace. They join in the Lord’s Supper. They partake of the Holy Spirit in the sense that they enjoy the nearness of his special immediate presence and his benefits. They have even made a kind of repentance, at least outwardly.

That's the way many Calvinists find a solution to this passage by relating it to non-believers in the church who repudiate Christ.

But there's one other way Bob... you know I'm going? I'm sure it's been argued here 5 million times!

That's right... what we call an ad hominem style.

An ad hominem argument is carried out by taking your opponent’s position and carrying it to its logical conclusion. The logical conclusion of the Judaizer heresy is to destroy any hope of salvation.

The logic goes like this. If a person embraced Christ and trusted in his atonement for sin, what would that person have if he went back to the covenant of Moses? In effect he would be repudiating the finished work of Christ. He would once again be a debtor to the law. If that were the case, where would he turn for salvation? He has repudiated the cross; he couldn’t turn to that. He would have no hope of salvation, because he would have no Savior. His theology does not allow a finished work of Christ.

With all that said and done note The Key to Hebrews 6 is found in verse 9. “But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.”

Here the author himself of Hebrews notes that he is speaking in an unusual manner. His conclusion differs from those who find here a text for falling away. He concludes with a confidence of better things from the beloved, things that accompany salvation. Obviously falling away does not accompany salvation. The author does not say that any believer actually does fall away. In fact he says the opposite, that he is confident they will not fall away.

Please note this is mostly teaching from R. C. Sproul I love that guy. He's going to be one of the first people I look up in heaven right after I find all my dogs and go for a hike.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That's right... what we call an ad hominem style.

An ad hominem argument is carried out by taking your opponent’s position and carrying it to its logical conclusion. The logical conclusion of the Judaizer heresy is to destroy any hope of salvation.

Um, that's not what "ad hominem" is.
"Ad hominem" is trying to make an argument based on something about a person, such as, "You have a big nose, therefore your theology is wrong."

You might be thinking of "reductio ad absurdum."
 

Redeemed

Active member
Um, that's not what "ad hominem" is.
"Ad hominem" is trying to make an argument based on something about a person, such as, "You have a big nose, therefore your theology is wrong."

You might be thinking of "reductio ad absurdum."
I knew it had to be one of those big fancy words and besides that I was just testing you guys. And by the way my nose is in that big...well not if you look at it in the right light anyway.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Here is the long of it Bob

Hebrews 6:4–6 (ESV): 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

This passage seems to strongly suggests that believers can and do fall away, totally and finally. But that's just not the case. First I would like to look at why is this warning here. One of the big controversies the early church had to deal with were the Judaizers. Those old Judaizers were a very destructive influence worse than banjo pickers. They wanted to profess Christ and at the same time insist on enforcing Old Testament ceremonies like circumcision. I believe that it was this heresy that the author of Hebrews was concerned with as it was in other parts of the New Testament especially the book of Galatians.

Another thing to think about Bob what's the exact nature of these people were being warned against falling away. Are the true believers or the tares growing among the wheat? Iets take a look at the list that describes them.

First you have people who were once enlightened. So Bob do you think that could be someone who at first all this Jesus stuff sounds good then they change their minds?

Next is they tasted of the heavenly gifts. Kinda sounds like communion and the Bible definitely warns us that we can do that and not be right with God.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit. That's the easiest one to fake I'm not even gonna go there but I've seen plenty of it. I could tell you some real funny stories about it though.

Tasted the good word of God. Even the demons can do that.

Cannot be renewed again to repentance. While we definitely could camp here for a while but let's just take a look at the apostle Peter and that night they arrest Jesus and he denied him three times. I'm thinking he did get renewed again until repentance. Jesus came back from the dead and straight up asked him do you love me. How many times three times. What did Jesus tell the apostles when they asked him how many times they should forgive their brother. Three times they asked Him? What did Jesus tell them Bob? I don't think it was "sorry they can't be renewed again until repentance". No it was 70×70 and that would be an unlimited number of times.

You see Hebrews could be describing people who have made a false profession of faith. All of these attributes may be possessed by non-believers. The tares who come to church every week hear the Word of God taught and preached and thus are “enlightened.” They participate in all of the means of grace. They join in the Lord’s Supper. They partake of the Holy Spirit in the sense that they enjoy the nearness of his special immediate presence and his benefits. They have even made a kind of repentance, at least outwardly.

That's the way many Calvinists find a solution to this passage by relating it to non-believers in the church who repudiate Christ.

But there's one other way Bob... you know I'm going? I'm sure it's been argued here 5 million times!

That's right... what we call an ad hominem style.

An ad hominem argument is carried out by taking your opponent’s position and carrying it to its logical conclusion. The logical conclusion of the Judaizer heresy is to destroy any hope of salvation.

The logic goes like this. If a person embraced Christ and trusted in his atonement for sin, what would that person have if he went back to the covenant of Moses? In effect he would be repudiating the finished work of Christ. He would once again be a debtor to the law. If that were the case, where would he turn for salvation? He has repudiated the cross; he couldn’t turn to that. He would have no hope of salvation, because he would have no Savior. His theology does not allow a finished work of Christ.

With all that said and done note The Key to Hebrews 6 is found in verse 9. “But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.”

Here the author himself of Hebrews notes that he is speaking in an unusual manner. His conclusion differs from those who find here a text for falling away. He concludes with a confidence of better things from the beloved, things that accompany salvation. Obviously falling away does not accompany salvation. The author does not say that any believer actually does fall away. In fact he says the opposite, that he is confident they will not fall away.

Please note this is mostly teaching from R. C. Sproul I love that guy. He's going to be one of the first people I look up in heaven right after I find all my dogs and go for a hike.
Yup - your first go is the other popular one - the "Almost, but not quite" argument. The "V9" argument doesn't eliminate the ultimate result of the 4-6 status. Note: the "Since they are crucifying" has also been rendered by "Experts" as "While they are Crucifying", which yields a way out for the backslider.

As one who has fallen away, I know that FAITH - is always a "Revelation"/"gift", and DEPENDS on having a "living relationship with God". But when other things move in and grow as distractions, and the relationship fades, it's not long before a "Living faith" becomes the fading memory of once having had a "Living faith" and then there's nothing. I've found that God, in His mercy does send "Wake up calls", sometimes pretty brutal ones, to get one's attention. My last 13 heart attacks have been a constant reminder to not wander - I cried out to him before the first Open heart, and then He was there, and there was peace.
 
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Bob Carabbio

Active member
So you're saying I should reject 20-30 passages in the Bible just because you think one single passage allegedly "vetoes" it?
Nope, I'm saying that you can follow your interpretation as long as you consider it to be valid. In the same fashion, I'll follow mine.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
well if you really had fallen away like those in Heb 6 then you would not of returned for it would be impossible according to that passage. most likely you were saved all along even though you did not feel or act saved. Believers are not saved one day, lost the next then saved again over and over again and again.
Other Greek "experts" point out the "Since they" also translates "While they" which eliminated the finality, and leaves room for the restoration of the backslider.
 
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