Perseverance of The Saints

zerinus

Well-known member
SO explain Heb 6:4-6
That is not the only one, there is more:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


These verses all refer to folks who, according to Calvinistic theology, should have been "saved," but evidently they were not.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sure Bob, Thanks for the slow pitch. So we can go with the long or the short of it. Right now I'll go with the short and I'll be back with the long.
Some say that this is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.
I agree that nobody can "lose" their salvation if they already have it. The question is, when do they have it? If they can't have it until they have "endured to end," then nobody has it in this life not to be able to lose it. So the real question is not whether anybody can "lose their salvation" or not; but whether it is possible for someone who has experienced full conversion to afterwards apostatize, fall away, and be damned. The answer, according to the scriptures quoted, is yes.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


These verses all refer to folks who, according to Calvinistic theology, should have been "saved," but evidently they were not.
This stuff is fun isn't it? It's not even 5 AM here in Oceanside California and I'm discussing eternal security, and watching a video from our Sunday service. Go figure. At 9 o'clock I will be hosting a Zoom meeting on The Book of Acts chapter 18. I've titled it The Secret Ingredient Each Person Must Possess "Humility".

I’ve heard people use 2 Peter 2:20 on how you can lose your salvation. They will quote the verse: “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.”

Then they’ll say, “You see, you can escape the pollutions, you can have the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, and you can fall and become entangled, and your latter is worse than before you believed. You see, you can lose your salvation.”

One thing they miss is the word “they.” If you study the word “they” from the beginning of chapter 2, you’ll find that it’s talking about “wells without water,” clouds without rain (v. 17), and “spots they are and blemishes” (v. 13). If you trace it back to 2:1 you’ll see that it’s talking about false prophets who follow the doctrines of demons.

You cannot use the verse to say that you can lose your salvation, because that is not its context. In fact, Paul has a word for those who do this. In 2 Corinthians 2:17 he says, “For we are not as many, who corrupt the word of God.”

The Greek word for corrupt is kapelos, which basically had to do with selling something in the marketplace deceitfully; selling a product that really wasn’t what it was claimed to be, like false advertising today.

Now Paul tells us that there are some who falsify the Word of God; they corrupt it to fit their own thoughts. I know hard to believe huh?

As members of His body, we cannot be separated from Him. The point is this: The Body of Christ is indivisible and cannot be cut apart. It is one flesh and one bone.

Here Paul in Philippians 1 expresses his Apostolic confidence that what Christ has started, Christ will finish.​

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:3–6)

Christ is called “founder and perfecter of our faith” (Heb. 12:2). We are the craftsmanship of Christ, and when Christ crafts a person in conformity to His image, He does not have to throw away the product at the end.

The Westminster Confession puts it, “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”

The Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith. I find it really hard to believe that God could be an Indian giver and take back the salvation he freely gives.​
 

zerinus

Well-known member
This stuff is fun isn't it? It's not even 5 AM here in Oceanside California and I'm discussing eternal security, and watching a video from our Sunday service. Go figure. At 9 o'clock I will be hosting a Zoom meeting on The Book of Acts chapter 18. I've titled it The Secret Ingredient Each Person Must Possess "Humility".
Good luck with all of that! I hope you will be teaching them sound biblical doctrine, not the heresy of Reformed theology and Calvinism! :)
I’ve heard people use 2 Peter 2:20 on how you can lose your salvation.
like I said, I don't think that "losing your salvation" is the right expression to use, because according to the Bible nobody is "saved" until they have "endured to the end" (Matt 10:22; 24:12-13), and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. You cannot "lose" something that you don't have yet, and cannot obtain until you have entered the kingdom of God in heaven.
They will quote the verse: “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.”

Then they’ll say, “You see, you can escape the pollutions, you can have the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, and you can fall and become entangled, and your latter is worse than before you believed. You see, you can lose your salvation.”

One thing they miss is the word “they.” If you study the word “they” from the beginning of chapter 2, you’ll find that it’s talking about “wells without water,” clouds without rain (v. 17), and “spots they are and blemishes” (v. 13). If you trace it back to 2:1 you’ll see that it’s talking about false prophets who follow the doctrines of demons.
I think you are reading that backwards. All the evil people it mentions prior to verse 20 are in that condition precisely because they have apostatized from the truth and turned away from the gospel which they once knew, not the other way around.
You cannot use the verse to say that you can lose your salvation, because that is not its context. In fact, Paul has a word for those who do this. In 2 Corinthians 2:17 he says, “For we are not as many, who corrupt the word of God.”

The Greek word for corrupt is kapelos, which basically had to do with selling something in the marketplace deceitfully; selling a product that really wasn’t what it was claimed to be, like false advertising today.
See above.
Now Paul tells us that there are some who falsify the Word of God; they corrupt it to fit their own thoughts. I know hard to believe huh?

As members of His body, we cannot be separated from Him. The point is this: The Body of Christ is indivisible and cannot be cut apart. It is one flesh and one bone.

Here Paul in Philippians 1 expresses his Apostolic confidence that what Christ has started, Christ will finish.​

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:3–6)

Christ is called “founder and perfecter of our faith” (Heb. 12:2). We are the craftsmanship of Christ, and when Christ crafts a person in conformity to His image, He does not have to throw away the product at the end.

The Westminster Confession puts it, “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”​
You are now combining many unrelated things. All sin is not the same. John distinguishes between two kinds of sin: a "sin unto death," and a sin "not unto death" (1 John 5:16-17). The kind of sin that Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 2:20-22, which leads to the complete and irredeemable damnation of a true believer and convert to the gospel, is the "sin unto death," no just any kind of sin.
The Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith. I find it really hard to believe that God could be an Indian giver and take back the salvation he freely gives.​
There are several issues with that. Firstly, according to the Bible nobody is "saved" until they have endured to the end, and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. Secondly, salvation being "free" does not mean that it is unconditional. It is conditional on faith, repentance, baptism, and enduring to the end. "Enduring to the end" means remaining true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. It means not apostatizing.
 
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Redeemed

Well-known member
Good luck with all of that! I hope you will be teaching them sound biblical doctrine, not the heresy of Reformed theology and Calvinism! :)

like I said, I don't think that "losing your salvation" is the right expression to use, because according to the Bible nobody is "saved" until they have "endured to the end" (Matt 10:22; 24:12-13), and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. You cannot "lose" something that you don't have yet, and cannot obtain until you have entered the kingdom of God in heaven.

I think you are reading that backwards. All the evil people it mentions prior to verse 20 are in that condition precisely because they have apostatized from the truth and turned away from the gospel which they once knew, not the other way around.

See above.

You are now combining many unrelated things. All sin is not the same. John distinguishes between two kinds of sin: a "sin unto death," and a sin "not unto death" (1 John 5:16-17). The kind of sin that Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 2:20-22, which leads to the complete and irredeemable damnation of a true believer and convert to the gospel, is the "sin unto death," no just any kind of sin.

There are several issues with that. Firstly, according to the Bible nobody is "saved" until they have endured to the end, and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. Secondly, salvation being "free" does not mean that it is unconditional. It is conditional on faith, repentance, baptism, and enduring to the end. "Enduring to the end" means remaining true to the gospel to the end of one’s life. It means not apostatizing.
Thanks for your concern over our Zoom meeting everything went well. We had a really good time. I'm looking forward to the one were going to have next week. I think Jesus likes to see us have a good time In our salvation, how about you. Oh the really good news is everyone that attended the meeting... they are still saved and confident they're going to remain that way. Isn't that assuring?

It seems like your into “Conditional Salvation” “Holiness” and “Robert Lyte teaching“. If that's the case...

Good luck with all of that! I hope someone will teach you some sound biblical doctrine, not the heresy of that "nobody is saved thing" your into now.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
It seems like your into “Conditional Salvation” “Holiness” and “Robert Lyte teaching“. If that's the case...

Good luck with all of that! I hope someone will teach you some sound biblical doctrine, not the heresy of that "nobody is saved thing" your into now.
LOL! You are holding on to your theology in spite of the Bible, not because of it. You are not addressing the issue of "enduring to the end" (Matt 10:22; 24:12-13). You are turning a blind eye to Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, and 2 Peter 2, which directly contradict your theology.

How can someone have been "once enlightened," and have "tasted of the heavenly gift," and were "made partakers of the Holy Ghost," and had "tasted the good word of God," and of the "powers of the world to come," and then "fallen away," which makes it impossible to "renew them
again unto repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6), and it not contradict your theology?

How can someone who has "sinned wilfully" after he has "received the knowledge of the truth," and thereby has "trodden under foot the
Son of God," and has "counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," and has "done despite unto the Spirit of grace," so that there remains "no more sacrifice for sins," but a certain "fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-29), and it not contradict your theology?

How can someone have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ," and then is "again entangled therein, and overcome," so that his latter end is "worse than the beginning," and it would have been "better for them not to have known the way of righteousness," than that after they have known it, to "turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Peter 2:20-22), and it not contradict your theology?
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
Thats not true, people are saved by grace now
Your word against the Bible. Not true.


Proof that Mormons never read the Bible:

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Proof that Mormons never read the Bible:

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
You forgot the "enduring to the end" bit. "Grace" does not cancel out "enduring to the end".
 
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