Pertaining to SDA teaching on those who have died

pythons

Active member
Do SDA's accept that Noah, Jacob, Isaac, the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement and wait for the Resurrection of the body?

Thanks
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Do SDA's accept that Noah, Jacob, Isaac, the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement and wait for the Resurrection of the body?

Thanks
Every now and then a new term pops up....what is the Investigative Judgement?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Dn 12:9-10 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Wicked can not "understand", what "the wise shall understand", because their sinfulness prevents it.
Do SDA's accept that Noah, Jacob, Isaac, the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement and wait for the Resurrection of the body?
AV Dn 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The understanding of the state of dead will prevent proper understanding for some.

"... the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven", No. Please continue your questions.
Belief 24: Christ’s ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary(Partial Quote) said:
The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. {Additional Emphasis by SDAchristian}
"... or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement", A little understood aspect of the Investigative Judgment is that, it's not for GOD in Omniscience, who reads hearts and minds.

AV Ac 3:19-20 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Eschatological timings as it relates to the timing between death and resurrection, two types of judgment for the Book of Life.

"... and wait for the Resurrection of the body?", Just past the Deadline for Investigative Judgment for others than GOD.

This is for starters.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
Prologue:
AV Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

In this case, poor comprehension in understanding, of the material available to you.

Yours in Christ, Michael

Well, this comes directly from the source I quoted from.

wiki said:
The Investigative Judgment doctrine states that in 1844 Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in Heaven as described in Daniel 8:13-14, and that this began the judgment described in Daniel 7:9-10.[3]

You still have directly to answer IF asking, say, Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, etc would be conscious and capable of praying for anyone of us here on earth?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Mk 9:2-4 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
You still have directly to answer IF asking, say, Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, etc would be conscious and capable of praying for anyone of us here on earth?
AV Ec 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

AV Gn 9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

"Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, etc would be conscious and capable of praying for anyone of us here on earth?", No.

There is only these ways physically to heaven:
1: Direct Translation like Enoch and Elijah.
2: Special Resurrection like Moses.
3: General First Resurrection.

Are you aware where the Bible says Jesus stayed while dead ???

Maybe you can give scriptures for your point of view in opinion ???

AV Dt 18:10-13 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Sabbath and State of the Dead are the two main issues of the end. It seems to my understanding, that you are leaving yourself open to a spirit in the "familiar" image of someone dead, to deceive you. I would even guess they would say the sabbath has been changed.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
Prologue:
AV Mk 9:2-4 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

AV Ec 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

AV Gn 9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

"Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, etc would be conscious and capable of praying for anyone of us here on earth?", No.

There is only these ways physically to heaven:
1: Direct Translation like Enoch and Elijah.
2: Special Resurrection like Moses.
3: General First Resurrection.

Are you aware where the Bible says Jesus stayed while dead ???

Maybe you can give scriptures for your point of view in opinion ???

AV Dt 18:10-13 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Sabbath and State of the Dead are the two main issues of the end. It seems to my understanding, that you are leaving yourself open to a spirit in the "familiar" image of someone dead, to deceive you. I would even guess they would say the sabbath has been changed.

Yours in Christ, Michael

As a Seventh-day Adventist you believe Ellen White exorcised the spiritual gift of Prophecy, that when Ellen said God "shew" her or made known to her such and such that its a given that's the way it is, right?

According to Ellen White she took a trip to heaven post 1844 and prior to 1847 where she not only had discussions with Jesus but visited with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Prophet Daniel and MANY OTHERS like them. In addition to that she claimed she visited with people there who had been slain for believing in Jesus and that there were little Children who had been slain.

Ellen White said:
I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. And I saw a vail with a heavy fringe of silver and gold, as a border on the bottom; it was very beautiful. I asked Jesus what was within the vail. He raised it with his own right arm, and bade me take heed. I saw there a glorious ark,
overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border, resembling Jesus' crowns; and on it were two bright angels - their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward.cc In the ark, beneath where the angels' wings were spread, was a golden pot of Manna, of a yellowish cast; and I saw a rod, which Jesus said was Aaron's; I saw it bud, blossom and bear fruit.dd And I saw two long golden rods, on which hung silver wires, and on the wires most glorious grapes; one cluster was more than a man here could carry.
And I saw Jesus step up and take of the manna, almonds, grapes and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table. I stepped up to see how much was taken away, and there was just as much left; and we shouted Hallelujah - Amen.

Ellen White said:
saw most glorious houses, that had the appearance of silver, supported by four pillars, set with pearls, most glorious to behold, which were to be inhabited by the saints; in them was a golden shelf; I saw many of the saints go into the houses, take off their glittering crowns and lay them on the shelf, then go out into the field by the houses to do something with the earth; not as we have to do with the earth here; no, no. A glorious light shone all about their heads, and they were continually shouting and offering praises to God. And I saw another field full of all kinds of flowers, and as I plucked them, I cried out, well they will never fade. Next I saw a field of tall grass, most glorious to behold; it was living green, and had a reflection of silver and gold, as it waved proudly to the glory of King Jesus. Then we entered a field full of all kinds of beasts - the lion, the lamb, the leopard and the wolf, altogether in perfect union;ii we passed through the midst of them, and they followed on peaceably after. Then we entered a wood, not like the dark woods we have here, no, no; but light, and all over glorious; the branches of the trees waved to and fro, and we all cried out, "we will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in this woods." We passed through the woods, for we were on our way to Mount Zion. As we were travelling along, we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they had a hem of red on their garments also. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lillies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers.



The climax of the trip was when Jesus ushered Ellen into a great dining hall with an incredible spread on the table and Ellen was getting ready to DIG IN but Jesus stopped her & said she couldn't eat anything CUZ if she did she couldn't return to planet earth and continue the work. So Ellen had to leave that incredible gravy train to Noah, Abraham, Daniel, etc. who I'm sure made short work of the feast.

Ellen White said:
And I saw a table of pure silver, it was many miles in length, yet our eyes could extend over it. And I saw the fruit of the tree of life, the manna, almonds, figs, pomegranates, grapes, and many other kinds of fruit. We all reclined at the table. I asked Jesus to let me eat of the fruit. He said, not now. Those who eat of the fruit of this land, go back to earth no more. But in a little while, if faithful, you shall both eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the fountain; and he said, you must go back to the earth again, and relate to others, what I have revealed to you. Then an angel bore me gently down to this dark world. Sometimes I think I cannot stay here any longer, all things of earth look so dreary - I feel very lonely here, for I have seen a better land. O, that I had wings like a dove, then would I fly away, and be at rest.

The point I'm making here is that the historic Christian Church maintains that those who die in Christ at death go to be with Christ and that they are conscious. The Historic Christian Church stops short of saying the saints in heaven are attending feasts at tables that are miles long as well as saints flapping their wings and flying to mountain tops.

Ellen White, if you can admit it or not, just said martyrs and Old Testament saints were ALREADY IN HEAVEN before she [Ellen] took her star trek with Jesus there. How does this work? Did Jesus give Ellen this vision prior to the SDA's adopting soul sleep?
 

Common Tater

Active member
Every now and then a new term pops up....what is the Investigative Judgement?

As a Seventh-day Adventist you believe Ellen White exorcised the spiritual gift of Prophecy, that when Ellen said God "shew" her or made known to her such and such that its a given that's the way it is, right?

According to Ellen White she took a trip to heaven post 1844 and prior to 1847 where she not only had discussions with Jesus but visited with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Prophet Daniel and MANY OTHERS like them. In addition to that she claimed she visited with people there who had been slain for believing in Jesus and that there were little Children who had been slain.







The climax of the trip was when Jesus ushered Ellen into a great dining hall with an incredible spread on the table and Ellen was getting ready to DIG IN but Jesus stopped her & said she couldn't eat anything CUZ if she did she couldn't return to planet earth and continue the work. So Ellen had to leave that incredible gravy train to Noah, Abraham, Daniel, etc. who I'm sure made short work of the feast.



The point I'm making here is that the historic Christian Church maintains that those who die in Christ at death go to be with Christ and that they are conscious. The Historic Christian Church stops short of saying the saints in heaven are attending feasts at tables that are miles long as well as saints flapping their wings and flying to mountain tops.

Ellen White, if you can admit it or not, just said martyrs and Old Testament saints were ALREADY IN HEAVEN before she [Ellen] took her star trek with Jesus there. How does this work? Did Jesus give Ellen this vision prior to the SDA's adopting soul sleep?
If the Investigative Judgement didn't begin until October 22, 1844 and only then did Jesus begin "to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits." (Great Controversy, [1888 edition], p. 479), what are these people already doing in Heaven?

No offense, but in reading what Ellen White said about seeing these people in heaven, it looks like she hooked the pants from her reform dress on her own pitchfork.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
This post is an example, that it takes just as much Holy Spirit help to understand EGW's visions, and Bible scriptures.

@pythons, I still like your research, but we do not see the same things, to the context of those passages.
As a Seventh-day Adventist you believe Ellen White exorcised the spiritual gift of Prophecy, that when Ellen said God "shew" her or made known to her such and such that its a given that's the way it is, right?
According to Ellen White she took a trip to heaven post 1844 and prior to 1847 where she not only had discussions with Jesus but visited with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Prophet Daniel and MANY OTHERS like them. In addition to that she claimed she visited with people there who had been slain for believing in Jesus and that there were little Children who had been slain.
Ellen White said:
I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. And I saw a vail with a heavy fringe of silver and gold, as a border on the bottom; it was very beautiful. I asked Jesus what was within the vail. He raised it with his own right arm, and bade me take heed. I saw there a glorious ark,
overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border, resembling Jesus' crowns; and on it were two bright angels - their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward.cc In the ark, beneath where the angels' wings were spread, was a golden pot of Manna, of a yellowish cast; and I saw a rod, which Jesus said was Aaron's; I saw it bud, blossom and bear fruit.dd And I saw two long golden rods, on which hung silver wires, and on the wires most glorious grapes; one cluster was more than a man here could carry. And I saw Jesus step up and take of the manna, almonds, grapes and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table. I stepped up to see how much was taken away, and there was just as much left; and we shouted Hallelujah - Amen. {Note: my Cut-N-Paste, did not copy all the formatting.}
Please continue to refer to your source reference, for accuracy sake. But you did on your Cut-N-Paste, share enough to understand the time context.

I learned that understanding these visions lack a date/time stamp reference. Many use eisegesis, to read in a date/time stamp to context.

From my understanding, I can not accept your eisegesis, to read in a date/time stamp reference. I understood you to mean the present time of the messenger in vision. GOD can show, past, present and future events to a messenger in vision. So many question GOD's wisdom to what to disclose or not(think seven thunders). The Holy Spirit does not make mistakes, in the Will of GOD !!!

AV Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

From the context of the source text, "And I saw Jesus step up and take of the manna, almonds, grapes and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table."

Are you now able to spiritually discern date/time context of the passage ???

In your opinion, Will "old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them" be at "the marriage supper of the Lamb", a post first resurrection context time ???
Ellen White said:
saw most glorious houses, that had the appearance of silver, supported by four pillars, set with pearls, most glorious to behold, which were to be inhabited by the saints; in them was a golden shelf; I saw many of the saints go into the houses, take off their glittering crowns and lay them on the shelf, then go out into the field by the houses to do something with the earth; not as we have to do with the earth here; no, no. A glorious light shone all about their heads, and they were continually shouting and offering praises to God. And I saw another field full of all kinds of flowers, and as I plucked them, I cried out, well they will never fade. Next I saw a field of tall grass, most glorious to behold; it was living green, and had a reflection of silver and gold, as it waved proudly to the glory of King Jesus. Then we entered a field full of all kinds of beasts - the lion, the lamb, the leopard and the wolf, altogether in perfect union;ii we passed through the midst of them, and they followed on peaceably after. Then we entered a wood, not like the dark woods we have here, no, no; but light, and all over glorious; the branches of the trees waved to and fro, and we all cried out, "we will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in this woods." We passed through the woods, for we were on our way to Mount Zion. As we were travelling along, we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they had a hem of red on their garments also. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lillies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers. {Note: my Cut-N-Paste, did not copy all the formatting.}
I can not understand why, you missed the time context on this one, given all the clues.

I am going to ask, can you discern all the murdered/aborted(per GOD's will in procreation) "an innumerable company of little ones" in this one ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
If the Investigative Judgement didn't begin until October 22, 1844 and only then did Jesus begin "to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits." (Great Controversy, [1888 edition], p. 479), what are these people already doing in Heaven?
I would ask to you consider, that you need to understand this better before giving your opinion in a rhetorical question. See my reply to @pythons.
No offense, but in reading what Ellen White said about seeing these people in heaven, it looks like she hooked the pants from her reform dress on her own pitchfork.
AV Mt 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Not a problem for me, I did not say them.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
The time context is concrete as Ellen describes being caught up with a group of people whereas Jesus and the group are "winging their way" to heaven - that's the "WE" part of the demographic.

This "WE" grouping (144,000) remains intact up until it is MIXED with individuals already there:

"And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them."

Ellen was a Methodist and Methodists believe that the dead in Christ go to heaven AND are conscious...
....Ellen boasted as to having this galactic star-trek PRIOR to 1847 so it's very reasonable to conclude.
....That Ellen, at this time, had not yet adopted the teaching of soul sleep.
....Therefore her interaction and out of body trip with Jesus reflected that.


Common Tater appears to have appropriately identified the quandary.
 
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Common Tater

Active member
I would ask to you consider, that you need to understand this better before giving your opinion in a rhetorical question. See my reply to @pythons.

AV Mt 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Not a problem for me, I did not say them.

Yours in Christ, Michael
I understand the Investigative Judgement quite well. I was a 3rd gen Adventist on one side of the family and 4th gen on the other. I attended Adventist schools from 1st grade through university. I've been to more Daniel and Revelation seminars than I can remember. I was attending PUC when Des Ford was there and lived through all of that, although I did not leave Adventism until the late 1980's. Trust me, I know the doctrine. Whether you want to admit it or not, it puts forward a salvation based upon a mixture of faith and works. It also states that the books were not opened until October 22, 1844. And therein lies the problem. Adventism will not argue that Moses, Enoch, and Elijah were already in Heaven during the time of Christ. If the books weren't opened until 1844, what was God going to do if they were found wanting? Send them back?

The early Adventists simply could not face the fact that they had believed in and taken part in a movement that disobeyed the Bible about setting a date for the Lord's return. They couldn't accept that fact when October 22 came and went and rather than admit they were wrong, they grabbed on to Hiram Edson's "vision" in a cornfield that what really happened was Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place. It was a face-saving measure and it flew in the face of what the Book of Hebrews teaches.
 

Formersda

Active member
I understand the Investigative Judgement quite well. I was a 3rd gen Adventist on one side of the family and 4th gen on the other. I attended Adventist schools from 1st grade through university. I've been to more Daniel and Revelation seminars than I can remember. I was attending PUC when Des Ford was there and lived through all of that, although I did not leave Adventism until the late 1980's. Trust me, I know the doctrine. Whether you want to admit it or not, it puts forward a salvation based upon a mixture of faith and works. It also states that the books were not opened until October 22, 1844. And therein lies the problem. Adventism will not argue that Moses, Enoch, and Elijah were already in Heaven during the time of Christ. If the books weren't opened until 1844, what was God going to do if they were found wanting? Send them back?

The early Adventists simply could not face the fact that they had believed in and taken part in a movement that disobeyed the Bible about setting a date for the Lord's return. They couldn't accept that fact when October 22 came and went and rather than admit they were wrong, they grabbed on to Hiram Edson's "vision" in a cornfield that what really happened was Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place. It was a face-saving measure and it flew in the face of what the Book of Hebrews teaches.
Absolutely and they will argue the toss about their take on proof texts.
For research purposes I was reading EGW vision of heaven today, I was just finishing copying the book of Revelation (that has been part of my mission to deprogramme myself from SDA, I’m copying the whole bible, done 11 books so far)
I have to admit it was laughable truely it was, firstly it takes 7 days to get to heaven. My question to that is did it take Jesus 7 days to get to heaven when He ascended?
I wasn’t aware that children and babies will have wings! They will use these wings to fly to the top of Mount Zion.
On the way to heaven Jesus with His right hand will give each person a crown, sounds like a pathfinder investiture.
The list goes on but much more worrying is Satan being the scapegoat that is heresy at its highest.

Satan Banished—Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him “all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.” Leviticus 16:21. Hvn 120.3

In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness.—The Great Controversy, 658.

Completely contrary to scripture John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD!
1st John 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1st John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

What is the unforgivable sin? In Jesus’s own words Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come.
What did God say would shut you out of everlasting life? Revelation 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelievers and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death.

Please note Rev 22:6 And he said to me these words are faithful and true, and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show His bond servants the things which must soon take place.

Gods words are faithful and true and He didn’t change his mind on things on 22nd October 1844, He suddenly did not know who is His own.

SDA is another gospels with a false prophet.

The investigative judgement doctrine is a face saving exercise. I remember the Desmond Ford fiasco.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
I understand the Investigative Judgement quite well. I was a 3rd gen Adventist on one side of the family and 4th gen on the other. I attended Adventist schools from 1st grade through university. I've been to more Daniel and Revelation seminars than I can remember. I was attending PUC when Des Ford was there and lived through all of that, although I did not leave Adventism until the late 1980's. Trust me, I know the doctrine.
AV Phl 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Knowing doctrine does not save you !!!

AV Ja 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Having a Heart of Love towards Truth does. So pick your truth wisely.
Whether you want to admit it or not, it puts forward a salvation based upon a mixture of faith and works. It also states that the books were not opened until October 22, 1844. And therein lies the problem. Adventism will not argue that Moses, Enoch, and Elijah were already in Heaven during the time of Christ. If the books weren't opened until 1844, what was God going to do if they were found wanting? Send them back?
So you do not trust GOD's judgment in this matter ???

You missed the point of Investigative Judgement, not being for GOD.

AV Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Okay ... Check question: Why does GOD need "the books" in Omniscience ??? Or better yet, who does need "the books" ???
The early Adventists simply could not face the fact that they had believed in and taken part in a movement that disobeyed the Bible about setting a date for the Lord's return. They couldn't accept that fact when October 22 came and went and rather than admit they were wrong, they grabbed on to Hiram Edson's "vision" in a cornfield that what really happened was Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place. It was a face-saving measure and it flew in the face of what the Book of Hebrews teaches.
Sour grapes, stop eating them.

The test of a prophet is whether it comes true. Universal Cognitive Dissonance will set in during the Sunday Law Death Decree.

What will be your choice, to join the martyrs or join the murderers ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Absolutely and they will argue the toss about their take on proof texts.
For research purposes I was reading EGW vision of heaven today, I was just finishing copying the book of Revelation (that has been part of my mission to deprogramme myself from SDA, I’m copying the whole bible, done 11 books so far)
I have to admit it was laughable truely it was, firstly it takes 7 days to get to heaven. My question to that is did it take Jesus 7 days to get to heaven when He ascended?
I wasn’t aware that children and babies will have wings! They will use these wings to fly to the top of Mount Zion.
On the way to heaven Jesus with His right hand will give each person a crown, sounds like a pathfinder investiture.
The list goes on but much more worrying is Satan being the scapegoat that is heresy at its highest.
Satan Banished—Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him “all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.” Leviticus 16:21. Hvn 120.3
In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness.—The Great Controversy, 658.
Completely contrary to scripture John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD!
1st John 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1st John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
What is the unforgivable sin? In Jesus’s own words Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come.
What did God say would shut you out of everlasting life? Revelation 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelievers and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death.
Please note Rev 22:6 And he said to me these words are faithful and true, and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show His bond servants the things which must soon take place.
Gods words are faithful and true and He didn’t change his mind on things on 22nd October 1844, He suddenly did not know who is His own.
SDA is another gospels with a false prophet.
The investigative judgement doctrine is a face saving exercise. I remember the Desmond Ford fiasco.
It is not GOD's free will purpose to take away your doubt. But it is your choice to give up doubt with GOD's help, and take hold on to faith with GOD's help.

AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus gives a reason here.

AV Mt 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish. 3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

But not here.

Midnight is coming soon enough.

AV Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

"Please note Rev 22:6 And he said to me these words are faithful and true, and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show His bond servants the things which must soon take place.", you forgot verse seven.

AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
AV Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Did you omit these verses from your memory, for what purpose ???

We will see who is right in the end. Eternally Right, or Eternally Dead.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
AV Phl 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Knowing doctrine does not save you !!!
But knowing a doctrine is false can sure keep you from being lost.
AV Ja 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Having a Heart of Love towards Truth does. So pick your truth wisely.

So you do not trust GOD's judgment in this matter ???
So are you saying that God judged Enoch, Elijah, and Moses before October 22, 1844?
You missed the point of Investigative Judgement, not being for GOD.
Who is it for?
AV Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Okay ... Check question: Why does GOD need "the books" in Omniscience ??? Or better yet, who does need "the books" ???

Sour grapes, stop eating them.

The test of a prophet is whether it comes true. Universal Cognitive Dissonance will set in during the Sunday Law Death Decree.
Hate to tell you this but William Miller turned out to be a false prophet. And there you go again with the Sunday Law Death Decree. Conjecture.
What will be your choice, to join the martyrs or join the murderers ???
As I have pointed out to you over and over, Christians are being martyred every day in this the present. For who they worship, not when.
 

pythons

Active member
The Catholic Church will never enact a law whereas people are commanded to worship on Sunday! This is nothing other than a "fear tactic" that's repeatedly beat into children to really cement the Sabbath / Saturday thing into their minds. Of the things that really matter to God as to how we act I'm pretty sure observing a Talmudic Sabbath wouldn't even make the list.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Some are not "high" enough to know, that war is here, and going to get worse before Jesus' second advent.
The Catholic Church will never enact a law whereas people are commanded to worship on Sunday! This is nothing other than a "fear tactic" that's repeatedly beat into children to really cement the Sabbath / Saturday thing into their minds. Of the things that really matter to God as to how we act I'm pretty sure observing a Talmudic Sabbath wouldn't even make the list.
"The Keys of This Blood" by Catholic Jesuit priest Malachi Martin.

Really now ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
But knowing a doctrine is false can sure keep you from being lost.
AV 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I can agree. But who says what is Truth from what is false for believers ???

IOW: Who defines a heretic ??? Who sets the punishment of a heretic ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
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