Pertaining to SDA teaching on those who have died

[pythons]

Hi pythons,

You have yet to explain what any of this has to do with the topic of this thread.

God bless!

Here is the OP

Do SDA's accept that Noah, Jacob, Isaac, the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement and wait for the Resurrection of the body?

I think I've posted enough examples of Ellen White and the other Pioneers categorically rejecting that God is spirit.....
...Every "BEING" in heaven - to include Father God has flesh, organs, members and parts according to SDA teaching.
... Any teaching that removed Father, Michael or Lucifer's flesh "body" was "DESTROYING THE PERSONALITY OF GOD".

This SDA categorical rejection of God being a single spirit was literally saturated throughout SDA publications...
...The Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Orthodox Church, etc. were loudly condemned by SDA's.
....Repeatedly in the Sabbath Herald and Signs of the Times papers -for - DESTROYING THE PERSONALITY OF GOD.

Ellen White, Ye shall receive power p 235.4
"Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the PERSONALITY OF GOD or of Christ are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor.

So, as Ellen White just said the SDA Pioneer teaching on the flesh bodies of Father God, Michael & Lucifer the archangels are PILLARS of the SDA Faith. The rest of the theology has this baked into it. You reject the consciousness of the soul because you believe it can't exist without a living body - it stands to reason IF that is how God is made up (a flesh body) and if God created man in His image then man would have a flesh body too. The SDA reasoned that Father God obviously had a body with organs because He could SMELL THE SACRIFICE and it was pleasing to Him, if it smelled good He was gonna eat it and would need those same organs that a man is known to have to digest and expel the waste.

I'm trying to show you that there is another way to look at all this - that's Biblically sound. I'm trying to slowly expose you to the truth that man being created in God image and likeness didn't mean that Father God had a liver, spleen, bowels, prostate, etc., etc. Once you grasp this concept what I've been saying will start to make a lot more sense.

 

[Common Tater]

Hi Common Tater,

Being: a living thing; sentient beings; a mythical being; especially : PERSON​

God bless!

An animal such as a cat is a being, but it is not a person. For that matter, a rock has a state of being, but is not a person. The Bible tells us there is only one God. That is why, in the theological sense, we say one Being and we are specific in stating that means only one Being that exists as three Persons, not a committee of three separate beings united in purpose but not in substance. Three beings is polytheism.

Let me put it plainly. Using the definition of being as I have described it, do you believe that the Godhead consists of one Being or three?

Hi Common Tater,

Being: a living thing; sentient beings; a mythical being; especially : PERSON​

God bless!

 

[Icyspark]

Here is the OP



I think I've posted enough examples of Ellen White and the other Pioneers categorically rejecting that God is spirit.....
...Every "BEING" in heaven - to include Father God has flesh, organs, members and parts according to SDA teaching.
... Any teaching that removed Father, Michael or Lucifer's flesh "body" was "DESTROYING THE PERSONALITY OF GOD".

This SDA categorical rejection of God being a single spirit was literally saturated throughout SDA publications...
...The Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Orthodox Church, etc. were loudly condemned by SDA's.
....Repeatedly in the Sabbath Herald and Signs of the Times papers -for - DESTROYING THE PERSONALITY OF GOD.

Ellen White, Ye shall receive power p 235.4
"Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the PERSONALITY OF GOD or of Christ are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor.

So, as Ellen White just said the SDA Pioneer teaching on the flesh bodies of Father God, Michael & Lucifer the archangels are PILLARS of the SDA Faith. The rest of the theology has this baked into it. You reject the consciousness of the soul because you believe it can't exist without a living body - it stands to reason IF that is how God is made up (a flesh body) and if God created man in His image then man would have a flesh body too. The SDA reasoned that Father God obviously had a body with organs because He could SMELL THE SACRIFICE and it was pleasing to Him, if it smelled good He was gonna eat it and would need those same organs that a man is known to have to digest and expel the waste.

I'm trying to show you that there is another way to look at all this - that's Biblically sound. I'm trying to slowly expose you to the truth that man being created in God image and likeness didn't mean that Father God had a liver, spleen, bowels, prostate, etc., etc. Once you grasp this concept what I've been saying will start to make a lot more sense.

Hi pythons,

As far as I can see, this has zero to do with the opening post.

Do SDA's accept that Noah, Jacob, Isaac, the Prophet Daniel and others who died in God's friendship COULD BE conscious and in heaven or do these individuals also have to undergo the Investigative Judgement and wait for the Resurrection of the body?

I addressed this question and your responses to me have been a bait and switch to address the issue of the Trinity doctrine and your belief that certain words be used while others be excluded based on definitions not found in Scripture. I reject your imposition of a definition based on human tradition and admonition.

The answer to your question of whether the individuals you mentioned "COULD BE conscious and in heaven" is obviously yes. My yes answer was based on a passage of Scripture which you've shown yourself predisposed to reject the main and plain meaning of what is being communicated. I shared with you what an early church "father" had to say about this biblical account and you remain in a position of denial. I say my answer satisfies the parameters which you set up in your "COULD BE" scenario and since you could not easily refute it you transitioned to a totally different subject.

God bless!

 

[Icyspark]

An animal such as a cat is a being, but it is not a person. For that matter, a rock has a state of being, but is not a person. The Bible tells us there is only one God. That is why, in the theological sense, we say one Being and we are specific in stating that means only one Being that exists as three Persons, not a committee of three separate beings united in purpose but not in substance. Three beings is polytheism.

Let me put it plainly. Using the definition of being as I have described it, do you believe that the Godhead consists of one Being or three?

Hi Common Tater,

It is not my intent to continue a conversation on the Trinity on a thread about consciousness in heaven. I'm already trying to get pythons to stay on the topic of his own thread and I have no intention of following this trail any further down the rabbit hole. If ya'll feel this is something you wish to discuss, then start a new thread. In that thread go ahead and spread what can be read in the Bible instead of things unsaid about the Godhead.

God bless!

 

[Common Tater]

Hi Common Tater,

It is not my intent to continue a conversation on the Trinity on a thread about consciousness in heaven. I'm already trying to get pythons to stay on the topic of his own thread and I have no intention of following this trail any further down the rabbit hole. If ya'll feel this is something you wish to discuss, then start a new thread. In that thread go ahead and spread what can be read in the Bible instead of things unsaid about the Godhead.

God bless!

Ooh, snarky.

 

[Common Tater]

Hi pythons,

Does Jesus have parts? Is Jesus God? If your answer to both of these is yes, then your argument falls before it ever stood.

God bless!

Did Jesus have parts before the Incarnation?

 

[pythons]

Hi pythons,

As far as I can see, this has zero to do with the opening post.



I addressed this question and your responses to me have been a bait and switch to address the issue of the Trinity doctrine and your belief that certain words be used while others be excluded based on definitions not found in Scripture. I reject your imposition of a definition based on human tradition and admonition.

The answer to your question of whether the individuals you mentioned "COULD BE conscious and in heaven" is obviously yes. My yes answer was based on a passage of Scripture which you've shown yourself predisposed to reject the main and plain meaning of what is being communicated. I shared with you what an early church "father" had to say about this biblical account and you remain in a position of denial. I say my answer satisfies the parameters which you set up in your "COULD BE" scenario and since you could not easily refute it you transitioned to a totally different subject.

God bless!

Therefore ALL Old Testament saints "COULD BE" in heaven is what I'm hearing you say....
...I wouldn't refute that as I believe all Old Testament saints indeed are in heaven.
...The points I raised reference the Trinity are all still standing.

 

[MMDAN]

Investigative Judgment

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Investigative Judgment

nonsda.org

 

[Icyspark]

Therefore ALL Old Testament saints "COULD BE" in heaven is what I'm hearing you say.... [Maybe that's cuz you're not listening?]
...I wouldn't refute that as I believe all Old Testament saints indeed are in heaven.

Hi pythons,

I responded to your question using the parameters you supplied. Furthermore, I didn't just remain in the strictly hypothetical. I supplied a text indicating that certain unnamed individuals were physically raised at the time of Christ's resurrection. When I say your supplied list of people "COULD BE" in heaven I am referring to them being there in their bodily form, not some nebulous, incorporeal "spiritual" form. When the Bible talks about the spirit departing at death it is merely addressing the reversal of the creation of mankind. The word translated as spirit is ruach, which simply means breath. So the spirit/breath of life returns to God who gave it.

I pray this helps.

 

[pythons]

Hi pythons,

I responded to your question using the parameters you supplied. Furthermore, I didn't just remain in the strictly hypothetical. I supplied a text indicating that certain unnamed individuals were physically raised at the time of Christ's resurrection. When I say your supplied list of people "COULD BE" in heaven I am referring to them being there in their bodily form, not some nebulous, incorporeal "spiritual" form. When the Bible talks about the spirit departing at death it is merely addressing the reversal of the creation of mankind. The word translated as spirit is ruach, which simply means breath. So the spirit/breath of life returns to God who gave it.

I pray this helps.

As to the conscious state of man after death in the Old Testament.

2nd Maccabees 15, 11 -16
He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision,[a] which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Oni′as, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Oni′as spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 1 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Job 14, 21
His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not. He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.

Pretty difficult for the dead to feel pain morn OR for themselves IF they are unconscious as you claim.

Both of these references are prior to the event you appealed to and and appropriate dispensation of the SDA rubric your asserting is universal.

 

[SDAchristian]

Therefore ALL Old Testament saints "COULD BE" in heaven is what I'm hearing you say....
...I wouldn't refute that as I believe all Old Testament saints indeed are in heaven.
...The points I raised reference the Trinity are all still standing.

AV Jn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

According to Jesus, resurrection is the ONLY escape from "the graves", so is Jesus lying then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[pythons]

AV Jn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

According to Jesus, resurrection is the ONLY escape from "the graves", so is Jesus lying then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

The BODY Michael, that is speaking of the Resurrection BODY...
...This would be contrasted with what Jesus said COULDN'T be killed.
...Here:

Matthew 10, 28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus says you [and the Sadducees] are WRONG.

 

[SDAchristian]

The BODY Michael, that is speaking of the Resurrection BODY...
...This would be contrasted with what Jesus said COULDN'T be killed.
...Here:
Matthew 10, 28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus says you [and the Sadducees] are WRONG.

AV Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I'm sorry, It seems we do not share a proper vocabulary with GOD, on this issue.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Formersda]

The BODY Michael, that is speaking of the Resurrection BODY...
...This would be contrasted with what Jesus said COULDN'T be killed.
...Here:

Matthew 10, 28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus says you [and the Sadducees] are WRONG.

Pythons,

SDA’s don’t believe in the soul as others do, they believe the soul is something God breathed in like Adam God breathed life into him this is the soul. They do not believe in an immortal soul thus soul sleep.
Therefore being born again is something physical, being born again as an SDA means that you have accepted all 28 fundamentals to the point where you have given up all your old habits so your fit to be baptised. For SDA’s all sin is a physical act that you do.

Its impossible for them to think or believe that we have immortal souls because their whole investigative judgement and the Sunday law would be out the window.

What that whole thing means is that on the sabbath Jesus was in the tomb His soul was dead too, which meant that the Godhead was separated. Eternal life for them means that when you fall asleep as in die, just like when you fall asleep and wake up you are not aware that any time has gone past so the next thing you see is Jesus. Forgetting all of us who are still alive and before we die know there is a period of time before the second coming.

Everyone who has died including Adam onwards have to go through the investigative judgement because suddenly Jesus lost His omniscience and forgot who he had died on the cross for. Everyone has to pass muster including EGW herself, but in her vision of heaven she did name some people who where sitting under the tree of life who where SDA’s who had obviously passed muster or something because how could they be in heaven if the second coming hadn’t occurred.

In the SDA church everything is physical they cannot comprehend the full aspect of the spiritual aspect, like in that same vision it will take us 7 days to get to heaven, did it take Jesus 7 days to get to heaven? Is He not omnipresent?
If the scene is true in John 6:19 when Jesus had walked on the water to the boat and when He got on the boat was immediately on the other side, that kinda tells you something super natural has happened. Don’t think it takes 7 days to get to heaven. That’s not biblical thus needs to be rejected.

 

[pythons]

AV Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I'm sorry, It seems we do not share a proper vocabulary with GOD, on this issue.

Yours in Christ, Michael

There you go!

If his body "died" but his soul was still alive after the death of his body that text makes sense...
...As does the one below.

Job 14, 15
They [the dead] feel but the pain of their own bodies and mourn only for themselves.

 

[Icyspark]

As to the conscious state of man after death in the Old Testament.

2nd Maccabees 15, 11 -16
He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a DREAM, a sort of VISION,[a] which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Oni′as, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Oni′as spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 1 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Hi pythons,

Let me just say that I place no emphasis on the Apocrypha. I haven't read hardly any of it. With that said, just a cursory reading of your own supplied text indicates that what is being observed by the author is an acknowledged "dream," or maybe "a sort of vision." Things seen in a dream or a "sort of" vision do not necessitate reality and I would suppose that someone who tends to transmogrify things which are clearly literal (e.g. the tree of life) into the symbolic, would be more careful in how they take something so nebulous as a "sort of" vision and make it into dogma.

Job 14, 21
His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not. He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.

Pretty difficult for the dead to feel pain morn OR for themselves IF they are unconscious as you claim.

Both of these references are prior to the event you appealed to and and appropriate dispensation of the SDA rubric your asserting is universal.

Icy you are using the RSV translation. Here's how the NewRSV translates this passage:

Job 14:21, 22​

Their children come to honour, and they do not know it; they are brought low, and it goes unnoticed. They feel only the pain of their own bodies, and mourn only for themselves.’​

The "they" would more reasonably refer to the "their children" in this context. This makes sense since the Bible doesn't contradict itself and we're told that, "The living know that they will die, but the dead know NOTHING; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost."

When we're told above about the dead knowing nothing, the Bible is consistent in likewise noting that "the dead do not praise the Lord." That when they die they "go down into silence."

Psalm 115:17​

The dead DO NOT praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence.​

​

Rest assured that if any saints were in the presence of the Lord that they would not be able to constrain themselves from praising Him!

I pray this helps.

 

[SDAchristian]

Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4-6 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

There you go!
If his body "died" but his soul was still alive after the death of his body that text makes sense...
...As does the one below.
Job 14, 15
They [the dead] feel but the pain of their own bodies and mourn only for themselves.

AV Jn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
AV Jn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

From your point of view, which statement of Jesus' is a lie ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[pythons]

Prologue:
AV Ro 3:4-6 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

AV Jn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
AV Jn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

From your point of view, which statement of Jesus' is a lie ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

People who are sleeping DREAM, Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping. Are you saying Jesus is a liar?

 

[SDAchristian]

People who are sleeping DREAM, ...

This is an assumption for the dead in graves !!!

ESV Job 14:22 He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.

Really !!! You posted this, and you need to be consistent to scriptures.

AV Ec 9:3-6 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

AV Jl 2:28-31 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

If GOD's testimony escapes your understanding, let me know ...

..., Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping. Are you saying Jesus is a liar?

"Are you saying Jesus is a liar?", No, all you need to do is prove your assumption above.

What is really interesting is "argumentum ex silentio", if Lazarus had a true NDE, where is Lazarus' testimony in scriptures ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[pythons]

This is an assumption for the dead in graves !!!

ESV Job 14:22 He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.

Really !!! You posted this, and you need to be consistent to scriptures.

AV Ec 9:3-6 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

AV Jl 2:28-31 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

If GOD's testimony escapes your understanding, let me know ...

"Are you saying Jesus is a liar?", No, all you need to do is prove your assumption above.

What is really interesting is "argumentum ex silentio", if Lazarus had a true NDE, where is Lazarus' testimony in scriptures ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

If you think everything about Christianity and what Jesus & the Apostles did is recorded in what the Historic Christian Church told you is Sacred Scripture you should read and ponder John 21, 25 & 2nd Thessalonians 2, 15.